1
00:00:16,130 --> 00:00:01,670
[Music]

2
00:00:24,020 --> 00:00:16,140
[Applause]

3
00:00:34,310 --> 00:00:24,030
[Music]

4
00:00:36,950 --> 00:00:34,320
welcome back to the UFO Rabbit Hole

5
00:00:38,930 --> 00:00:36,960
podcast I'm your host Kelly Chase

6
00:00:40,549 --> 00:00:38,940
today we're diving into something

7
00:00:42,410 --> 00:00:40,559
completely different

8
00:00:44,690 --> 00:00:42,420
so far on our journey down the rabbit

9
00:00:47,209 --> 00:00:44,700
hole our progress has been linear and

10
00:00:49,910 --> 00:00:47,219
logical we've taken on both the history

11
00:00:52,069 --> 00:00:49,920
and the ontologies of ufology in a

12
00:00:54,830 --> 00:00:52,079
methodical way starting at the beginning

13
00:00:56,150 --> 00:00:54,840
and allowing each new idea to build upon

14
00:00:58,910 --> 00:00:56,160
the last

15
00:01:01,610 --> 00:00:58,920
where we haven't gotten to yet is the

16
00:01:03,709 --> 00:01:01,620
weird world of experience or narratives

17
00:01:06,109 --> 00:01:03,719
and that's been intentional

18
00:01:07,789 --> 00:01:06,119
for experiencers I don't need to spell

19
00:01:10,850 --> 00:01:07,799
out how all of these things are related

20
00:01:12,710 --> 00:01:10,860
and for non-experiencers that's where

21
00:01:15,109 --> 00:01:12,720
the wheels typically fall off

22
00:01:17,210 --> 00:01:15,119
even among those who are fully ready to

23
00:01:19,250 --> 00:01:17,220
embrace the idea that there is a

24
00:01:21,410 --> 00:01:19,260
non-human intelligence present on this

25
00:01:23,270 --> 00:01:21,420
planet there are many who lose the

26
00:01:25,010 --> 00:01:23,280
thread at the point that anyone actually

27
00:01:27,890 --> 00:01:25,020
has a direct encounter with this

28
00:01:29,749 --> 00:01:27,900
intelligence and I'd argue that in most

29
00:01:32,390 --> 00:01:29,759
cases it's not because these people

30
00:01:34,310 --> 00:01:32,400
aren't open-minded but rather it's

31
00:01:36,649 --> 00:01:34,320
because experience or narratives are

32
00:01:38,090 --> 00:01:36,659
bizarre and often unintelligible to the

33
00:01:40,190 --> 00:01:38,100
point that you're left with nothing

34
00:01:43,670 --> 00:01:40,200
solid to hold on to

35
00:01:45,410 --> 00:01:43,680
it sounds crazy and so it's all too easy

36
00:01:47,810 --> 00:01:45,420
to default to the assumptions about

37
00:01:50,270 --> 00:01:47,820
experiencers that come pre-loaded in our

38
00:01:51,410 --> 00:01:50,280
larger cultural context that they must

39
00:01:53,450 --> 00:01:51,420
be nuts

40
00:01:55,609 --> 00:01:53,460
that's why over the course of this

41
00:01:58,010 --> 00:01:55,619
podcast we've been methodically building

42
00:02:00,469 --> 00:01:58,020
an understanding of our reality that is

43
00:02:02,690 --> 00:02:00,479
both nuanced and scientifically sound

44
00:02:04,730 --> 00:02:02,700
enough to actually support these

45
00:02:06,170 --> 00:02:04,740
experience or narratives before we

46
00:02:08,749 --> 00:02:06,180
attempt to weave them into this

47
00:02:10,490 --> 00:02:08,759
ridiculously complex tapestry

48
00:02:12,710 --> 00:02:10,500
with the waking up inside the cave

49
00:02:14,990 --> 00:02:12,720
series we've begun that work in Earnest

50
00:02:19,070 --> 00:02:15,000
but we're not there yet

51
00:02:21,110 --> 00:02:19,080
and yet today we're going to go there as

52
00:02:23,390 --> 00:02:21,120
is the experience of many who begin to

53
00:02:26,150 --> 00:02:23,400
pursue a coherent and consistent line of

54
00:02:28,910 --> 00:02:26,160
questioning with regard to the UFO topic

55
00:02:30,830 --> 00:02:28,920
at a certain point the high strangeness

56
00:02:33,530 --> 00:02:30,840
of it all begins to creep in whether

57
00:02:35,089 --> 00:02:33,540
invited or not it seeps through the

58
00:02:37,369 --> 00:02:35,099
seams of our carefully constructed

59
00:02:40,729 --> 00:02:37,379
ontologies hinting to us that something

60
00:02:42,710 --> 00:02:40,739
vast and unfathomable lies Beyond

61
00:02:45,650 --> 00:02:42,720
if you're ready for that you're going to

62
00:02:47,930 --> 00:02:45,660
love this episode if you're not that's

63
00:02:50,630 --> 00:02:47,940
totally fine but I'd challenge you to

64
00:02:52,490 --> 00:02:50,640
give it a try like with any other idea

65
00:02:53,990 --> 00:02:52,500
that you're not sure what to do with you

66
00:02:56,449 --> 00:02:54,000
can just put this one on the shelf for

67
00:02:58,750 --> 00:02:56,459
later maybe you'll come back to it with

68
00:03:01,550 --> 00:02:58,760
a new understanding and maybe you won't

69
00:03:03,949 --> 00:03:01,560
considering ideas is not the same as

70
00:03:07,250 --> 00:03:03,959
accepting them and all that's called for

71
00:03:09,410 --> 00:03:07,260
here is your open-minded consideration

72
00:03:12,050 --> 00:03:09,420
so let's get into it

73
00:03:14,390 --> 00:03:12,060
in this episode I spoke with author

74
00:03:17,390 --> 00:03:14,400
illustrator and researcher Mike clelland

75
00:03:19,250 --> 00:03:17,400
Mike is the author of several books two

76
00:03:22,190 --> 00:03:19,260
of which will be discussing directly in

77
00:03:25,910 --> 00:03:22,200
this episode the first is The Messengers

78
00:03:28,430 --> 00:03:25,920
owls synchronicity and the UFO abductee

79
00:03:30,410 --> 00:03:28,440
the second is his latest release the

80
00:03:32,089 --> 00:03:30,420
Unseen which is a fiction book that

81
00:03:33,350 --> 00:03:32,099
deals with many of the same themes of

82
00:03:35,750 --> 00:03:33,360
his other work

83
00:03:37,850 --> 00:03:35,760
he also provided the illustrations of

84
00:03:39,949 --> 00:03:37,860
the book The crypto terrestrials a

85
00:03:42,770 --> 00:03:39,959
meditation on indigenous humanoids and

86
00:03:44,410 --> 00:03:42,780
the aliens Among Us by Mac Tony's they

87
00:03:47,390 --> 00:03:44,420
will also be discussing in this episode

88
00:03:49,729 --> 00:03:47,400
you can find links to all of his work in

89
00:03:51,289 --> 00:03:49,739
the episode description I have had the

90
00:03:53,149 --> 00:03:51,299
pleasure of getting to know Mike over

91
00:03:54,949 --> 00:03:53,159
the last few months and to have been one

92
00:03:57,710 --> 00:03:54,959
of the very first people to get to read

93
00:04:00,530 --> 00:03:57,720
the Unseen before it was published

94
00:04:03,229 --> 00:04:00,540
in both Mike and his work I have found a

95
00:04:05,210 --> 00:04:03,239
kindred spirit Amira reflecting my

96
00:04:08,270 --> 00:04:05,220
deepest and most mystical experiences

97
00:04:10,130 --> 00:04:08,280
back to me not just as they are but with

98
00:04:11,570 --> 00:04:10,140
added layers of complexity and

99
00:04:14,089 --> 00:04:11,580
authenticity

100
00:04:16,129 --> 00:04:14,099
in encountering his work I find that I

101
00:04:18,469 --> 00:04:16,139
understand the weirdness of my life more

102
00:04:20,509 --> 00:04:18,479
deeply even if the questions that are

103
00:04:23,390 --> 00:04:20,519
raised by that understanding remind me

104
00:04:25,490 --> 00:04:23,400
that I know so much less than I thought

105
00:04:28,070 --> 00:04:25,500
I hope you enjoy this conversation as

106
00:04:29,990 --> 00:04:28,080
much as I did here's my interview with

107
00:04:31,670 --> 00:04:30,000
Mike clelland

108
00:04:34,010 --> 00:04:31,680
I want to start by talking about

109
00:04:35,510 --> 00:04:34,020
something that's woven throughout your

110
00:04:36,830 --> 00:04:35,520
books and throughout experience or

111
00:04:39,110 --> 00:04:36,840
narratives in general which is

112
00:04:41,090 --> 00:04:39,120
synchronicities I've found that even

113
00:04:43,310 --> 00:04:41,100
people who don't identify as being an

114
00:04:45,230 --> 00:04:43,320
experiencer per se find that when they

115
00:04:47,870 --> 00:04:45,240
begin to explore the complex landscape

116
00:04:49,310 --> 00:04:47,880
of topics that surround UFOs that that

117
00:04:51,650 --> 00:04:49,320
interest is often sparked by a

118
00:04:53,270 --> 00:04:51,660
synchronicity and even when it's not as

119
00:04:55,010 --> 00:04:53,280
you begin to go down the rabbit hole

120
00:04:57,110 --> 00:04:55,020
people often feel that synchronicities

121
00:04:59,330 --> 00:04:57,120
seem to be guiding their journey in some

122
00:05:01,490 --> 00:04:59,340
way introducing them to new ideas and

123
00:05:03,170 --> 00:05:01,500
new people at just the right moment and

124
00:05:04,969 --> 00:05:03,180
I'd say that's been my experience in my

125
00:05:06,530 --> 00:05:04,979
own work and that so many of the friends

126
00:05:08,689 --> 00:05:06,540
and collaborators that I've met in the

127
00:05:11,150 --> 00:05:08,699
field yourself included have come to me

128
00:05:12,890 --> 00:05:11,160
in that way so I'd really just love to

129
00:05:15,290 --> 00:05:12,900
start there what do you make of

130
00:05:16,909 --> 00:05:15,300
synchronicities and why do so many of us

131
00:05:18,950 --> 00:05:16,919
especially when we begin to approach

132
00:05:20,689 --> 00:05:18,960
these topics suddenly have this

133
00:05:22,909 --> 00:05:20,699
unshakable feeling that something about

134
00:05:24,529 --> 00:05:22,919
our lives is being orchestrated in ways

135
00:05:26,689 --> 00:05:24,539
that feels impossible

136
00:05:29,330 --> 00:05:26,699
okay so that's a good question the

137
00:05:31,850 --> 00:05:29,340
synchronicity question is at the core of

138
00:05:34,610 --> 00:05:31,860
all of this so you said why does it feel

139
00:05:37,909 --> 00:05:34,620
like our lives are being orchestrated so

140
00:05:40,310 --> 00:05:37,919
I can't say this is true but one reason

141
00:05:42,110 --> 00:05:40,320
would be perhaps our lives are being

142
00:05:44,749 --> 00:05:42,120
orchestrated I can't shy away from that

143
00:05:47,510 --> 00:05:44,759
one I don't know if that's true but wow

144
00:05:49,370 --> 00:05:47,520
I can't shake that feeling sometimes I

145
00:05:51,770 --> 00:05:49,380
just had this conversation recently so

146
00:05:54,290 --> 00:05:51,780
I've had my own direct experiences

147
00:05:56,810 --> 00:05:54,300
called Contact experiences I don't like

148
00:05:59,330 --> 00:05:56,820
the term abduction or abductee but

149
00:06:02,090 --> 00:05:59,340
there's not many other words that fit so

150
00:06:03,890 --> 00:06:02,100
I use the term direct contact

151
00:06:05,689 --> 00:06:03,900
that doesn't quite work either but

152
00:06:09,290 --> 00:06:05,699
experiencer

153
00:06:11,570 --> 00:06:09,300
anyway so I've talked to thousands of

154
00:06:13,790 --> 00:06:11,580
people I think that would be safe to say

155
00:06:15,830 --> 00:06:13,800
at this point after over a decade of

156
00:06:18,670 --> 00:06:15,840
digging into this well over a decade and

157
00:06:21,409 --> 00:06:18,680
there's a pop culture kind of narrative

158
00:06:24,590 --> 00:06:21,419
that surrounds the people who have had

159
00:06:26,570 --> 00:06:24,600
this experience and it would be people

160
00:06:28,370 --> 00:06:26,580
driving on a lonely road at night being

161
00:06:31,070 --> 00:06:28,380
taken out of their car and being taken

162
00:06:32,570 --> 00:06:31,080
on board a flying saucer or being taken

163
00:06:34,070 --> 00:06:32,580
out of their bedroom and floated out a

164
00:06:36,230 --> 00:06:34,080
window and then arriving in a room and

165
00:06:37,670 --> 00:06:36,240
lying on a table and I've heard those

166
00:06:39,830 --> 00:06:37,680
stories I've certainly read those

167
00:06:42,170 --> 00:06:39,840
stories those show up in the books by

168
00:06:45,110 --> 00:06:42,180
Bud Hopkins and David Jacobs into a

169
00:06:47,450 --> 00:06:45,120
lesser degree in the books by John Mack

170
00:06:48,650 --> 00:06:47,460
so I've certainly read those accounts I

171
00:06:52,070 --> 00:06:48,660
have talked to

172
00:06:55,189 --> 00:06:52,080
almost no one who tells exactly that

173
00:06:57,050 --> 00:06:55,199
account like close to zero so close to

174
00:06:59,150 --> 00:06:57,060
zero that statistically zero would be

175
00:07:01,969 --> 00:06:59,160
the correct number to round off to so

176
00:07:04,309 --> 00:07:01,979
that's our pop culture take on the

177
00:07:07,010 --> 00:07:04,319
mystery you know people being

178
00:07:09,529 --> 00:07:07,020
taken on board flying saucers but I

179
00:07:10,390 --> 00:07:09,539
never hear it what I hear is people

180
00:07:13,490 --> 00:07:10,400
being

181
00:07:14,830 --> 00:07:13,500
plagued or overwhelmed by

182
00:07:19,150 --> 00:07:14,840
synchronicities

183
00:07:22,430 --> 00:07:19,160
coincidences that have such a high chart

184
00:07:27,650 --> 00:07:22,440
coincidences that seem to be important

185
00:07:30,409 --> 00:07:27,660
in a way that they cannot shake and that

186
00:07:32,450 --> 00:07:30,419
more than anything is what I'm more than

187
00:07:33,650 --> 00:07:32,460
UFO sightings right so someone who's had

188
00:07:36,050 --> 00:07:33,660
these experiences well you know here

189
00:07:37,490 --> 00:07:36,060
I'll tell you two or three UFO sightings

190
00:07:38,870 --> 00:07:37,500
stories that I have

191
00:07:40,189 --> 00:07:38,880
and there oftentimes they're like a

192
00:07:41,210 --> 00:07:40,199
little dot in the sky they're not very

193
00:07:43,129 --> 00:07:41,220
exciting

194
00:07:45,409 --> 00:07:43,139
but when they start talking about the

195
00:07:46,430 --> 00:07:45,419
coincidences and the synchronicities in

196
00:07:49,670 --> 00:07:46,440
their lives

197
00:07:51,770 --> 00:07:49,680
that for me is the core of the mystery

198
00:07:54,230 --> 00:07:51,780
and that is the thread for me that is

199
00:07:56,689 --> 00:07:54,240
easiest to pull on is the synchronistic

200
00:07:58,909 --> 00:07:56,699
stories because they're often connected

201
00:08:00,950 --> 00:07:58,919
to a deeper part of their own life

202
00:08:02,450 --> 00:08:00,960
experience let's say or their own life

203
00:08:03,409 --> 00:08:02,460
Journey that might be a better way to

204
00:08:06,710 --> 00:08:03,419
say it

205
00:08:08,930 --> 00:08:06,720
yeah absolutely I think what I find so

206
00:08:12,050 --> 00:08:08,940
interesting I have a monthly call with

207
00:08:13,249 --> 00:08:12,060
my patrons and we come and I keep it

208
00:08:15,110 --> 00:08:13,259
very open-ended we can talk about

209
00:08:17,629 --> 00:08:15,120
whatever they want to talk about you

210
00:08:19,430 --> 00:08:17,639
know whoever shows up and inevitably we

211
00:08:21,529 --> 00:08:19,440
end up talking about synchronicities a

212
00:08:23,629 --> 00:08:21,539
lot it ends up being the thing that I

213
00:08:26,570 --> 00:08:23,639
think is perhaps most accessible to

214
00:08:28,070 --> 00:08:26,580
people but also the most as you were

215
00:08:29,869 --> 00:08:28,080
talking about the most profound and the

216
00:08:32,149 --> 00:08:29,879
most impactful a lot of the people who

217
00:08:34,190 --> 00:08:32,159
show up to those calls have seen UFOs

218
00:08:36,949 --> 00:08:34,200
but the thing that's really sort of

219
00:08:38,449 --> 00:08:36,959
niggling at them is some strange

220
00:08:40,250 --> 00:08:38,459
synchronicity that they've been dealing

221
00:08:42,170 --> 00:08:40,260
with and that ultimately ends up being

222
00:08:43,730 --> 00:08:42,180
where the conversation goes really

223
00:08:46,010 --> 00:08:43,740
identify with that

224
00:08:47,389 --> 00:08:46,020
yeah yeah and there's other things that

225
00:08:49,910 --> 00:08:47,399
can cause synchronicities too I think

226
00:08:51,769 --> 00:08:49,920
anyone so I wrote an essay for a journal

227
00:08:55,550 --> 00:08:51,779
and there's a series of books called the

228
00:08:57,110 --> 00:08:55,560
sync book s-y-n-c so synchronistic book

229
00:08:59,210 --> 00:08:57,120
and a fellow who's studying

230
00:09:01,550 --> 00:08:59,220
synchronicities Alan Greene I think he

231
00:09:03,350 --> 00:09:01,560
was Alan abidas agreed at that point his

232
00:09:04,790 --> 00:09:03,360
pen name is Alan Greene

233
00:09:07,250 --> 00:09:04,800
he

234
00:09:08,870 --> 00:09:07,260
books

235
00:09:10,610 --> 00:09:08,880
and I was talking to a friend of mine

236
00:09:13,310 --> 00:09:10,620
and she knew of my stories and she had

237
00:09:15,710 --> 00:09:13,320
listened to me talk like about owls and

238
00:09:17,630 --> 00:09:15,720
my issues and the nuttiness of my

239
00:09:19,730 --> 00:09:17,640
research and this was early on this is

240
00:09:21,530 --> 00:09:19,740
going back 12 years or so and I remember

241
00:09:24,350 --> 00:09:21,540
I felt like I was really on to something

242
00:09:26,090 --> 00:09:24,360
and I said you know people with UFO

243
00:09:27,829 --> 00:09:26,100
contact experiences they have more

244
00:09:28,910 --> 00:09:27,839
synchronicities than let's say Joe

245
00:09:31,490 --> 00:09:28,920
normal

246
00:09:33,470 --> 00:09:31,500
and she rolled her eyes and said anyone

247
00:09:36,370 --> 00:09:33,480
on a spiritual path will have more

248
00:09:39,410 --> 00:09:36,380
synchronicities and she was right now

249
00:09:41,870 --> 00:09:39,420
what that forced me to do correctly or

250
00:09:45,530 --> 00:09:41,880
incorrectly what I did was I said oh

251
00:09:47,810 --> 00:09:45,540
given that model then the UFO contact is

252
00:09:49,370 --> 00:09:47,820
part of a spiritual path and when you

253
00:09:52,190 --> 00:09:49,380
look at it that way

254
00:09:55,009 --> 00:09:52,200
it's very productive you have a lot of

255
00:09:57,170 --> 00:09:55,019
richness comes back when you look at the

256
00:09:59,210 --> 00:09:57,180
UFO contact experience not as a science

257
00:10:01,850 --> 00:09:59,220
fiction sort of thing or an exploitative

258
00:10:03,710 --> 00:10:01,860
sort of thing or even as a real thing

259
00:10:05,570 --> 00:10:03,720
because I talked to very few people who

260
00:10:07,850 --> 00:10:05,580
say this like it truly happened to them

261
00:10:10,910 --> 00:10:07,860
most of the people are in this place of

262
00:10:13,430 --> 00:10:10,920
like wow I have a dream that implies

263
00:10:16,490 --> 00:10:13,440
this or something feels this way but

264
00:10:18,310 --> 00:10:16,500
very very rarely do I have people say I

265
00:10:20,870 --> 00:10:18,320
concretely know this happened to me

266
00:10:24,170 --> 00:10:20,880
everyone's just a half a step away from

267
00:10:26,210 --> 00:10:24,180
saying that so I think that this contact

268
00:10:28,910 --> 00:10:26,220
experience is much more Elusive and

269
00:10:31,910 --> 00:10:28,920
mysterious and the synchronicities tend

270
00:10:35,030 --> 00:10:31,920
to be the most tangible thing that you

271
00:10:38,090 --> 00:10:35,040
can latch onto and say yes this powerful

272
00:10:40,850 --> 00:10:38,100
synchronistic event truly happened and

273
00:10:42,290 --> 00:10:40,860
that is the thread that is the easiest

274
00:10:44,870 --> 00:10:42,300
to pull on certainly was the easiest to

275
00:10:46,370 --> 00:10:44,880
pull on for me and because I could

276
00:10:47,750 --> 00:10:46,380
document them I could write it on a

277
00:10:49,130 --> 00:10:47,760
piece of paper and put the date on it

278
00:10:52,250 --> 00:10:49,140
and that kind of thing was very easy for

279
00:10:56,329 --> 00:10:52,260
me but to look at memories from a long

280
00:10:57,949 --> 00:10:56,339
time ago or very fleeting memories it

281
00:11:00,650 --> 00:10:57,959
was very little Concrete in that area

282
00:11:02,870 --> 00:11:00,660
yeah that makes a lot of sense

283
00:11:05,090 --> 00:11:02,880
so how did you end up writing a book

284
00:11:06,350 --> 00:11:05,100
about owls and synchronicities and what

285
00:11:07,730 --> 00:11:06,360
do you see if being a connection between

286
00:11:10,250 --> 00:11:07,740
the two

287
00:11:13,670 --> 00:11:10,260
an easy one oh yeah so talking about

288
00:11:15,769 --> 00:11:13,680
what has overtaken my life for the last

289
00:11:17,509 --> 00:11:15,779
year so I had a powerful event which I

290
00:11:19,009 --> 00:11:17,519
can which I've told many times and it

291
00:11:21,470 --> 00:11:19,019
will get sidetracked if I told the whole

292
00:11:22,970 --> 00:11:21,480
thing so I went camping in 2006 and saw

293
00:11:26,389 --> 00:11:22,980
a bunch of owls with a woman named

294
00:11:29,030 --> 00:11:26,399
Kristen and it happened twice almost the

295
00:11:31,310 --> 00:11:29,040
exact same thing two times in a row

296
00:11:32,690 --> 00:11:31,320
oh four days apart two separate camping

297
00:11:35,630 --> 00:11:32,700
trips different part of the mountains

298
00:11:38,150 --> 00:11:35,640
where we saw three owls and they flew

299
00:11:41,509 --> 00:11:38,160
around us at Sunset now that is not much

300
00:11:42,590 --> 00:11:41,519
right that's not much but it changed my

301
00:11:44,210 --> 00:11:42,600
life

302
00:11:45,769 --> 00:11:44,220
so I'm looking at a real owl I hear a

303
00:11:47,889 --> 00:11:45,779
voice in my head that says this has

304
00:11:52,370 --> 00:11:47,899
something to do with the UFOs and by

305
00:11:54,110 --> 00:11:52,380
implication it meant my youth so I

306
00:11:56,090 --> 00:11:54,120
started looking into my own experiences

307
00:11:58,610 --> 00:11:56,100
and as I did

308
00:12:00,170 --> 00:11:58,620
I reached out to researchers and are you

309
00:12:02,449 --> 00:12:00,180
familiar with Leo sprinkle a researcher

310
00:12:04,910 --> 00:12:02,459
out of Wyoming he was a clinician he was

311
00:12:06,350 --> 00:12:04,920
a psychologist and he taught for a long

312
00:12:08,090 --> 00:12:06,360
time at the University of Wyoming he was

313
00:12:10,190 --> 00:12:08,100
had a doctorate in Psychology I think

314
00:12:11,569 --> 00:12:10,200
I've got that right and he pointed me to

315
00:12:13,550 --> 00:12:11,579
people and introduced me to people and

316
00:12:15,170 --> 00:12:13,560
everyone I talked to I would ask the

317
00:12:17,389 --> 00:12:15,180
question have you ever had any odd

318
00:12:19,370 --> 00:12:17,399
experiences with owls this is

319
00:12:21,290 --> 00:12:19,380
researchers and people who claim the

320
00:12:24,889 --> 00:12:21,300
direct contact experience and what

321
00:12:26,690 --> 00:12:24,899
happened was I was flooded I was flooded

322
00:12:29,210 --> 00:12:26,700
with accounts it wasn't 100 of the

323
00:12:31,310 --> 00:12:29,220
people but it was like a goodly amount

324
00:12:32,810 --> 00:12:31,320
would say you know no one has ever asked

325
00:12:35,090 --> 00:12:32,820
me that question I had the weirdest

326
00:12:36,889 --> 00:12:35,100
story that involves an Hull

327
00:12:38,509 --> 00:12:36,899
and I started documenting these things

328
00:12:39,889 --> 00:12:38,519
and collecting them and sharing some of

329
00:12:41,870 --> 00:12:39,899
my own stories and putting them on my

330
00:12:43,610 --> 00:12:41,880
blog and very early on I put a little

331
00:12:46,129 --> 00:12:43,620
post on my blog or a little Banner on

332
00:12:48,170 --> 00:12:46,139
the sidebar of my blog and it said I

333
00:12:49,490 --> 00:12:48,180
want to hear your owl stories and I have

334
00:12:51,350 --> 00:12:49,500
a different website now and it's on

335
00:12:52,970 --> 00:12:51,360
there and every time I do a talk I say

336
00:12:55,910 --> 00:12:52,980
like hey if anyone has any owl stories I

337
00:12:58,370 --> 00:12:55,920
want to hear them and so consequently if

338
00:13:00,410 --> 00:12:58,380
anyone anywhere in the world has an odd

339
00:13:03,290 --> 00:13:00,420
experience with a UFO and a novel I'm

340
00:13:04,970 --> 00:13:03,300
about one or two Google clicks away so

341
00:13:07,490 --> 00:13:04,980
I'm getting those stories I'm asking and

342
00:13:11,030 --> 00:13:07,500
I'm receiving those and within those

343
00:13:12,949 --> 00:13:11,040
stories is a form of I don't know how to

344
00:13:15,769 --> 00:13:12,959
say it they're just there's a tone in

345
00:13:20,090 --> 00:13:15,779
equality to some of these stories that

346
00:13:22,610 --> 00:13:20,100
imply such a richness to I'm going to

347
00:13:25,610 --> 00:13:22,620
say it to reality itself there is a

348
00:13:28,370 --> 00:13:25,620
richness folded into these stories that

349
00:13:30,769 --> 00:13:28,380
points to a deeper reality that is

350
00:13:34,009 --> 00:13:30,779
running parallel alongside our reality

351
00:13:35,810 --> 00:13:34,019
these feel like a myth like an ancient

352
00:13:39,410 --> 00:13:35,820
myth many of the stories I'm collecting

353
00:13:41,389 --> 00:13:39,420
and that is very much what I'm drawn to

354
00:13:43,190 --> 00:13:41,399
so it feels like I'm asking for

355
00:13:46,069 --> 00:13:43,200
something I'm receiving it I'm receiving

356
00:13:48,829 --> 00:13:46,079
exactly the types of stories that float

357
00:13:51,290 --> 00:13:48,839
my boat but holding on that thread of

358
00:13:53,930 --> 00:13:51,300
owls and UFOs I thought I would get a

359
00:13:55,790 --> 00:13:53,940
few sprays and it would run its course

360
00:13:57,710 --> 00:13:55,800
and that was how many years ago that's

361
00:14:01,129 --> 00:13:57,720
we're about like getting close to 20

362
00:14:02,930 --> 00:14:01,139
years and it has been unrelenting and I

363
00:14:06,430 --> 00:14:02,940
am so grateful because it has been

364
00:14:09,769 --> 00:14:06,440
engaging and fun and exciting and

365
00:14:11,629 --> 00:14:09,779
continually compelling as far as the

366
00:14:14,269 --> 00:14:11,639
accounts I'm getting and what it implies

367
00:14:17,870 --> 00:14:14,279
so I'm really grateful that like I say I

368
00:14:19,550 --> 00:14:17,880
did not choose owls owls choose me and

369
00:14:21,410 --> 00:14:19,560
in the big picture I'm really grateful

370
00:14:25,370 --> 00:14:21,420
because it changed the direction of my

371
00:14:28,069 --> 00:14:25,380
life and it's been rewarding and fun

372
00:14:30,170 --> 00:14:28,079
I love that what's so funny Mike is that

373
00:14:32,870 --> 00:14:30,180
I've never personally had a

374
00:14:35,569 --> 00:14:32,880
synchronicity with an owl but I cannot

375
00:14:37,970 --> 00:14:35,579
talk about you to anyone without them

376
00:14:40,550 --> 00:14:37,980
having a synchronicity with Paul it

377
00:14:42,889 --> 00:14:40,560
happens all the time like it's crazy to

378
00:14:45,050 --> 00:14:42,899
me actually Jim Madden he's a frequent

379
00:14:47,030 --> 00:14:45,060
guest on this podcast I talked to him

380
00:14:49,009 --> 00:14:47,040
about your work and he was like oh I'm

381
00:14:51,650 --> 00:14:49,019
listening to the owls above my house

382
00:14:54,889 --> 00:14:51,660
hooting right now and then the next day

383
00:14:56,990 --> 00:14:54,899
he sends me a photo with one of his sons

384
00:14:59,030 --> 00:14:57,000
sitting on the ground and there's just

385
00:15:01,009 --> 00:14:59,040
an owl sitting on the ground just a few

386
00:15:04,250 --> 00:15:01,019
feet away from his son just looking at

387
00:15:06,410 --> 00:15:04,260
his son and it's just so interesting to

388
00:15:08,689 --> 00:15:06,420
me how I literally can't talk about you

389
00:15:10,370 --> 00:15:08,699
which is anyone without owls somehow

390
00:15:12,110 --> 00:15:10,380
coming into their life it's really

391
00:15:14,090 --> 00:15:12,120
something honestly

392
00:15:15,290 --> 00:15:14,100
now I've given up at this point so I'm

393
00:15:17,389 --> 00:15:15,300
at the point now where no one needs to

394
00:15:19,310 --> 00:15:17,399
prove anything to me right so I feel

395
00:15:21,110 --> 00:15:19,320
strongly that owls are connected to some

396
00:15:23,750 --> 00:15:21,120
sort of Highly charged human events and

397
00:15:25,550 --> 00:15:23,760
I would say that UFO contact is one of

398
00:15:28,670 --> 00:15:25,560
many highly charged human experiences

399
00:15:30,949 --> 00:15:28,680
that that owls may show up in but wow I

400
00:15:32,449 --> 00:15:30,959
was getting flooded with owl

401
00:15:35,870 --> 00:15:32,459
synchronicities at a certain point in my

402
00:15:37,250 --> 00:15:35,880
life and it gets toned way down and what

403
00:15:39,350 --> 00:15:37,260
is happening now is other people are

404
00:15:42,769 --> 00:15:39,360
having them and then they contact me

405
00:15:44,990 --> 00:15:42,779
so we do have this feeling that owls are

406
00:15:47,030 --> 00:15:45,000
very powerful symbols and they have been

407
00:15:49,430 --> 00:15:47,040
for many cultures throughout history so

408
00:15:51,829 --> 00:15:49,440
can you talk just a little bit about the

409
00:15:53,449 --> 00:15:51,839
cultural symbolism of owls and how it

410
00:15:54,829 --> 00:15:53,459
aligns with some of the narratives that

411
00:15:56,810 --> 00:15:54,839
you've collected

412
00:15:58,790 --> 00:15:56,820
so all throughout human history like so

413
00:16:02,030 --> 00:15:58,800
ancient man would have been able to

414
00:16:05,329 --> 00:16:02,040
understand that owls fly in the dark

415
00:16:07,310 --> 00:16:05,339
they fight their creatures of the night

416
00:16:09,170 --> 00:16:07,320
so they could have stepped out of their

417
00:16:11,750 --> 00:16:09,180
cave and seen an owl and understood that

418
00:16:14,569 --> 00:16:11,760
it was flying through the forest in

419
00:16:17,689 --> 00:16:14,579
complete darkness that is something that

420
00:16:19,670 --> 00:16:17,699
must have seemed magic to our ancestors

421
00:16:22,790 --> 00:16:19,680
now we can say they have highly

422
00:16:24,290 --> 00:16:22,800
evolutionarily evolved eyes that are

423
00:16:26,150 --> 00:16:24,300
capable of seeing in very low light

424
00:16:28,490 --> 00:16:26,160
conditions and they have a heightened

425
00:16:30,410 --> 00:16:28,500
sense of hearing and that we can do

426
00:16:33,769 --> 00:16:30,420
scientific testing on their ears and

427
00:16:37,009 --> 00:16:33,779
their eyes but yet that magic Still

428
00:16:38,930 --> 00:16:37,019
Remains in within the owl's Mystique

429
00:16:41,389 --> 00:16:38,940
let's say people contact me all the time

430
00:16:44,990 --> 00:16:41,399
they say oh I saw an owl landed on my

431
00:16:47,389 --> 00:16:45,000
fence just outside on my porch

432
00:16:51,530 --> 00:16:47,399
and they talk about it like it's the

433
00:16:53,629 --> 00:16:51,540
most majestic powerful Eerie they like

434
00:16:54,769 --> 00:16:53,639
or they're scared or they're in awe boy

435
00:16:56,749 --> 00:16:54,779
that doesn't happen if people see a

436
00:17:00,230 --> 00:16:56,759
bunny rabbit you know on their backyard

437
00:17:01,430 --> 00:17:00,240
so owls they come pre-loaded with a lot

438
00:17:03,769 --> 00:17:01,440
of majesty

439
00:17:05,329 --> 00:17:03,779
and so if an owl can fly into the night

440
00:17:08,449 --> 00:17:05,339
that very

441
00:17:10,669 --> 00:17:08,459
quickly becomes a metaphor for traveling

442
00:17:12,650 --> 00:17:10,679
into the darkness or traveling into the

443
00:17:14,630 --> 00:17:12,660
alternate Realms or traveling into the

444
00:17:17,630 --> 00:17:14,640
land of the gods or to the Land of the

445
00:17:20,270 --> 00:17:17,640
Dead they go to that other realm and

446
00:17:23,090 --> 00:17:20,280
that's consistent in many of the world's

447
00:17:24,590 --> 00:17:23,100
traditions and you take that one step

448
00:17:25,730 --> 00:17:24,600
further so they go to the Land of the

449
00:17:28,010 --> 00:17:25,740
Dead they go to the land of our

450
00:17:29,750 --> 00:17:28,020
ancestors they go to that other realm

451
00:17:32,810 --> 00:17:29,760
the land of the Gods and then they come

452
00:17:35,090 --> 00:17:32,820
back with a message and I got it so many

453
00:17:37,130 --> 00:17:35,100
times in my stories people would contact

454
00:17:39,289 --> 00:17:37,140
me and they'd have these elaborate

455
00:17:41,270 --> 00:17:39,299
experiences with an owl

456
00:17:44,150 --> 00:17:41,280
and they would say the owl was sitting

457
00:17:45,289 --> 00:17:44,160
on the windowsill and then halfway

458
00:17:46,549 --> 00:17:45,299
through the letter they would no longer

459
00:17:48,770 --> 00:17:46,559
call it an owl and they'd say the

460
00:17:50,570 --> 00:17:48,780
messenger was on the windowsill and I

461
00:17:51,650 --> 00:17:50,580
understood that kind of thing so it just

462
00:17:54,590 --> 00:17:51,660
was understood that these were

463
00:17:56,930 --> 00:17:54,600
Messengers my direct experience with my

464
00:17:58,789 --> 00:17:56,940
initial owl experience with Kristen in

465
00:18:02,090 --> 00:17:58,799
the mountains I was looking at a real

466
00:18:04,789 --> 00:18:02,100
owl I heard a voice in my head this has

467
00:18:08,690 --> 00:18:04,799
something to do with the UFOs a message

468
00:18:12,169 --> 00:18:08,700
in my head a message and it changed the

469
00:18:15,230 --> 00:18:12,179
direction of my life so I understand the

470
00:18:17,390 --> 00:18:15,240
power of this and I would argue that

471
00:18:18,409 --> 00:18:17,400
present day the experiences I'm

472
00:18:20,570 --> 00:18:18,419
collecting

473
00:18:22,190 --> 00:18:20,580
and that I've experienced myself people

474
00:18:24,470 --> 00:18:22,200
have been having these all throughout

475
00:18:26,630 --> 00:18:24,480
human history and that this is something

476
00:18:28,310 --> 00:18:26,640
normal people have a powerful experience

477
00:18:30,590 --> 00:18:28,320
with an owl if we were back in a tribal

478
00:18:34,070 --> 00:18:30,600
Village a few hundred years ago in South

479
00:18:36,710 --> 00:18:34,080
Dakota and we had a powerful experience

480
00:18:38,330 --> 00:18:36,720
with an owl we could go to the edge of

481
00:18:40,490 --> 00:18:38,340
the village and knock on the teepee and

482
00:18:43,010 --> 00:18:40,500
and meet the shaman and the shaman could

483
00:18:44,390 --> 00:18:43,020
talk us through what that may or may not

484
00:18:45,590 --> 00:18:44,400
be now you would go the next Valley over

485
00:18:47,630 --> 00:18:45,600
this Shaman might have a different

486
00:18:50,210 --> 00:18:47,640
lineage and a different tradition but

487
00:18:52,970 --> 00:18:50,220
the village had an understanding of the

488
00:18:54,590 --> 00:18:52,980
power of the totem animal of the owl so

489
00:18:56,690 --> 00:18:54,600
that I think that's been around since

490
00:18:59,270 --> 00:18:56,700
the dawn of man where like westerners

491
00:19:02,750 --> 00:18:59,280
now or materialists we don't have that

492
00:19:05,150 --> 00:19:02,760
connection to the archetypal animal the

493
00:19:07,010 --> 00:19:05,160
owl in the way we once did so what

494
00:19:09,650 --> 00:19:07,020
happens now is we have Google and we

495
00:19:11,350 --> 00:19:09,660
have essentially me so if someone has a

496
00:19:14,750 --> 00:19:11,360
powerful mystical experience with an owl

497
00:19:16,370 --> 00:19:14,760
they'll find me and or not everyone but

498
00:19:18,470 --> 00:19:16,380
enough that I feel like I've got a

499
00:19:19,970 --> 00:19:18,480
full-time job and so I've been

500
00:19:22,610 --> 00:19:19,980
collecting And archiving these stories

501
00:19:25,789 --> 00:19:22,620
now let me just present day

502
00:19:27,230 --> 00:19:25,799
Harry Potter the most popular book in

503
00:19:29,510 --> 00:19:27,240
the history of publishing or series of

504
00:19:33,710 --> 00:19:29,520
books in the history of publishing has a

505
00:19:37,490 --> 00:19:33,720
pet owl and the owl delivers the male it

506
00:19:41,150 --> 00:19:37,500
is perfect it is perfect the owl as

507
00:19:44,450 --> 00:19:41,160
messenger it is embedded into the core

508
00:19:46,549 --> 00:19:44,460
of our present day pop culture mythology

509
00:19:50,090 --> 00:19:46,559
so it's not shared around the campfire

510
00:19:52,669 --> 00:19:50,100
by the elders it's right there in on our

511
00:19:55,430 --> 00:19:52,679
bookshelves in libraries it's right

512
00:19:57,590 --> 00:19:55,440
there the same mythology the owl as

513
00:19:59,270 --> 00:19:57,600
messenger oh that's so interesting I

514
00:20:01,070 --> 00:19:59,280
hadn't made that connection but I won't

515
00:20:03,049 --> 00:20:01,080
be able to unsee that now

516
00:20:05,330 --> 00:20:03,059
so something I really appreciate about

517
00:20:07,430 --> 00:20:05,340
your approach in The Messengers is the

518
00:20:08,810 --> 00:20:07,440
very human approach that you take you're

519
00:20:10,190 --> 00:20:08,820
not just interested in the nuts and

520
00:20:12,169 --> 00:20:10,200
bolts of what happened in that

521
00:20:13,669 --> 00:20:12,179
experience but how it fits within the

522
00:20:15,529 --> 00:20:13,679
greater Narrative of the person's life

523
00:20:17,270 --> 00:20:15,539
you're concerned with questions about

524
00:20:19,430 --> 00:20:17,280
what was going on in their life at that

525
00:20:21,650 --> 00:20:19,440
time how the person interpreted their

526
00:20:23,870 --> 00:20:21,660
anomalous experience and the impacts

527
00:20:25,730 --> 00:20:23,880
that it had on them afterwards so can

528
00:20:27,770 --> 00:20:25,740
you talk a little bit about what

529
00:20:30,049 --> 00:20:27,780
researchers can learn by taking that

530
00:20:31,850 --> 00:20:30,059
approach that they would otherwise Miss

531
00:20:33,110 --> 00:20:31,860
oh I'm not telling another researcher

532
00:20:34,430 --> 00:20:33,120
what they should do or what they

533
00:20:36,470 --> 00:20:34,440
shouldn't do I think this is all a very

534
00:20:37,909 --> 00:20:36,480
personal journey and as far as me it's

535
00:20:39,710 --> 00:20:37,919
funny a friend of mine I don't want to

536
00:20:41,930 --> 00:20:39,720
use his name it's a good friend of mine

537
00:20:43,490 --> 00:20:41,940
and he runs his own website and stuff

538
00:20:44,750 --> 00:20:43,500
and he's pretty opinionated and he got

539
00:20:46,430 --> 00:20:44,760
back to me one time he said Mike you're

540
00:20:47,750 --> 00:20:46,440
driving me crazy with all this owl stuff

541
00:20:50,150 --> 00:20:47,760
like you were like oh it's just making

542
00:20:51,289 --> 00:20:50,160
me crazy he said you are not being

543
00:20:52,909 --> 00:20:51,299
scientific

544
00:20:54,470 --> 00:20:52,919
and I said what do I care I'm not a

545
00:20:55,970 --> 00:20:54,480
scientist and I thought that was a

546
00:20:57,409 --> 00:20:55,980
really good answer I loved I was really

547
00:20:59,930 --> 00:20:57,419
proud of myself that was a good comeback

548
00:21:02,090 --> 00:20:59,940
and it's true I'm not a scientist this

549
00:21:05,029 --> 00:21:02,100
has been an entirely

550
00:21:08,990 --> 00:21:05,039
subjective experience for me I am not

551
00:21:11,990 --> 00:21:09,000
objective I am not I know I'm not I me

552
00:21:13,970 --> 00:21:12,000
it was confronted with mystery and Owl

553
00:21:15,529 --> 00:21:13,980
said this has something to do with UFOs

554
00:21:18,890 --> 00:21:15,539
or whatever I in the presence of owls I

555
00:21:21,230 --> 00:21:18,900
had a voice in my head so I am now

556
00:21:23,750 --> 00:21:21,240
for better for worse obsessed

557
00:21:25,010 --> 00:21:23,760
and the obsession has been fruitful in

558
00:21:26,390 --> 00:21:25,020
the sense that it's rewarding and

559
00:21:28,549 --> 00:21:26,400
exciting and interesting and I get to

560
00:21:31,610 --> 00:21:28,559
meet and talk to wonderful people but

561
00:21:34,610 --> 00:21:31,620
I'm on my own Journey this is my own

562
00:21:36,950 --> 00:21:34,620
spiritual journey this is my own trip

563
00:21:38,930 --> 00:21:36,960
into the darkest part of the forest and

564
00:21:41,450 --> 00:21:38,940
I'm just trying to share that and I'm

565
00:21:43,870 --> 00:21:41,460
trying to write it in book format in a

566
00:21:46,130 --> 00:21:43,880
way earn books and in talks and in

567
00:21:48,350 --> 00:21:46,140
podcasts and such were it where I can

568
00:21:51,470 --> 00:21:48,360
get my point across but this has been a

569
00:21:53,529 --> 00:21:51,480
singular experience for myself so the

570
00:21:57,049 --> 00:21:53,539
reason I ask those questions is after

571
00:21:58,970 --> 00:21:57,059
many thousands of people this difficult

572
00:22:00,289 --> 00:21:58,980
number to come up with exactly so I

573
00:22:01,970 --> 00:22:00,299
would say thousands of people have

574
00:22:04,010 --> 00:22:01,980
reached out to me with their owl and UFO

575
00:22:05,090 --> 00:22:04,020
stories and I try my very best to get

576
00:22:08,390 --> 00:22:05,100
back to them I can't get back to

577
00:22:10,190 --> 00:22:08,400
everyone but I have seen a pattern where

578
00:22:11,630 --> 00:22:10,200
their life will be going along in one

579
00:22:13,130 --> 00:22:11,640
way that was this is me I'll use me as

580
00:22:15,590 --> 00:22:13,140
an example my life was going on in one

581
00:22:18,049 --> 00:22:15,600
way and I had an owl experience and it

582
00:22:19,730 --> 00:22:18,059
didn't it had a UFO in the in a implied

583
00:22:21,409 --> 00:22:19,740
I didn't see a physical UFO at the time

584
00:22:24,649 --> 00:22:21,419
of the event but it was implied by the

585
00:22:27,350 --> 00:22:24,659
voice in my head my life changed and I

586
00:22:28,850 --> 00:22:27,360
will also say that I started I had

587
00:22:30,830 --> 00:22:28,860
always all throughout my life I would

588
00:22:32,450 --> 00:22:30,840
have these odd psychic flashes so these

589
00:22:34,549 --> 00:22:32,460
are the questions I asked what was going

590
00:22:36,049 --> 00:22:34,559
on leading up to the event what happened

591
00:22:36,950 --> 00:22:36,059
afterwards how did your life change

592
00:22:39,649 --> 00:22:36,960
after

593
00:22:42,289 --> 00:22:39,659
how did your spirituality change did you

594
00:22:43,250 --> 00:22:42,299
change religions and then how would you

595
00:22:46,070 --> 00:22:43,260
rate your

596
00:22:49,010 --> 00:22:46,080
psychic abilities and then do you have

597
00:22:52,130 --> 00:22:49,020
any healing skills like healing

598
00:22:53,570 --> 00:22:52,140
abilities and you don't have to guess

599
00:22:55,370 --> 00:22:53,580
like the kind of stories that I'm

600
00:22:56,450 --> 00:22:55,380
hearing that would bring those kinds of

601
00:22:57,470 --> 00:22:56,460
questions about where people would

602
00:22:59,270 --> 00:22:57,480
magically

603
00:23:01,970 --> 00:22:59,280
realize that they had Hands-On healing

604
00:23:02,990 --> 00:23:01,980
abilities this is very common so once

605
00:23:04,789 --> 00:23:03,000
again I'm not looking at the big

606
00:23:06,529 --> 00:23:04,799
totality of the UFO subject I'm looking

607
00:23:08,810 --> 00:23:06,539
at the thinnest little sliver of owls

608
00:23:12,669 --> 00:23:08,820
and UFOs and this is what I'm finding

609
00:23:14,870 --> 00:23:12,679
that the owl seems to be connected to a

610
00:23:17,149 --> 00:23:14,880
transformative point in people's lives

611
00:23:18,409 --> 00:23:17,159
no it's not 100 so sometimes I ask these

612
00:23:19,850 --> 00:23:18,419
questions that people are like nope got

613
00:23:21,710 --> 00:23:19,860
no psychic abilities nope can't heal

614
00:23:24,169 --> 00:23:21,720
anyone nope nothing changed to my life

615
00:23:25,970 --> 00:23:24,179
but I did have this powerful owl and UFO

616
00:23:28,490 --> 00:23:25,980
experience so I'm at peace with that

617
00:23:30,710 --> 00:23:28,500
it's not 100 but it is certainly enough

618
00:23:33,110 --> 00:23:30,720
that I have seen it as a pattern and it

619
00:23:34,490 --> 00:23:33,120
is fascinating to me this is something I

620
00:23:36,890 --> 00:23:34,500
share and people have actually it's so

621
00:23:38,570 --> 00:23:36,900
funny researchers are curious

622
00:23:40,190 --> 00:23:38,580
like people have said you can't share

623
00:23:41,510 --> 00:23:40,200
that that's your information you have to

624
00:23:43,610 --> 00:23:41,520
keep that secret I'm like what are you

625
00:23:45,289 --> 00:23:43,620
crazy no this is not my job to keep

626
00:23:46,789 --> 00:23:45,299
stuff secret so when I talk to someone

627
00:23:48,230 --> 00:23:46,799
on the phone

628
00:23:50,570 --> 00:23:48,240
someone contacts me with their owl and

629
00:23:52,490 --> 00:23:50,580
UFO story talk to him on the phone got

630
00:23:56,930 --> 00:23:52,500
my clipboard out in the corner I write

631
00:23:59,090 --> 00:23:56,940
Reiki like the Japanese healing modality

632
00:24:01,070 --> 00:23:59,100
energy healing and I just write in the

633
00:24:02,210 --> 00:24:01,080
corner and I just wait talk or we talk

634
00:24:04,010 --> 00:24:02,220
and they tell me their story and they

635
00:24:05,090 --> 00:24:04,020
tell me they're you know I'll UFO and

636
00:24:07,549 --> 00:24:05,100
then I say hey what do you do for work

637
00:24:09,230 --> 00:24:07,559
they said I'm a Reiki therapist or they

638
00:24:12,049 --> 00:24:09,240
say oh I'm like I just got my level

639
00:24:14,690 --> 00:24:12,059
three Reiki certification and these are

640
00:24:16,730 --> 00:24:14,700
often like not you know women with

641
00:24:19,130 --> 00:24:16,740
turquoise earrings in Sedona there's

642
00:24:21,890 --> 00:24:19,140
truck drivers and like not the kind of

643
00:24:23,510 --> 00:24:21,900
people you would suspect to be regulars

644
00:24:24,950 --> 00:24:23,520
I'm now this is something I cannot prove

645
00:24:27,350 --> 00:24:24,960
because I have not crunched the numbers

646
00:24:29,350 --> 00:24:27,360
it's totally anecdotal but I don't think

647
00:24:33,409 --> 00:24:29,360
I'm very far off I would say 50 percent

648
00:24:35,690 --> 00:24:33,419
half of the people who have a UFO and

649
00:24:37,669 --> 00:24:35,700
Owl experience half of them

650
00:24:39,590 --> 00:24:37,679
are Reiki healers or do if they're not

651
00:24:42,409 --> 00:24:39,600
Reiki healers they're doing some sort of

652
00:24:45,169 --> 00:24:42,419
healing modality that is in the same

653
00:24:47,090 --> 00:24:45,179
flavor in the same mood as Reiki healing

654
00:24:50,750 --> 00:24:47,100
that to me

655
00:24:52,570 --> 00:24:50,760
is mind-blowing mufon it's a very

656
00:24:55,909 --> 00:24:52,580
conservative organization that does

657
00:24:57,710 --> 00:24:55,919
Research into UFO sightings and they

658
00:24:59,210 --> 00:24:57,720
have a checklist and right on the

659
00:25:00,710 --> 00:24:59,220
checklist it says you know well what

660
00:25:02,630 --> 00:25:00,720
time did you see the UFO which way did

661
00:25:04,490 --> 00:25:02,640
it fly from can you draw a picture of it

662
00:25:06,770 --> 00:25:04,500
two of the questions are one is has your

663
00:25:09,049 --> 00:25:06,780
religion changed or your spirituality

664
00:25:11,330 --> 00:25:09,059
changed and the other one is

665
00:25:13,610 --> 00:25:11,340
do you have psychic skills psychic

666
00:25:15,529 --> 00:25:13,620
abilities since you're citing so it's

667
00:25:17,570 --> 00:25:15,539
well understood it's not just me that's

668
00:25:19,549 --> 00:25:17,580
stumbled on this it's well understood in

669
00:25:22,250 --> 00:25:19,559
the researchers in the field including

670
00:25:24,649 --> 00:25:22,260
the very very conservative people at

671
00:25:27,289 --> 00:25:24,659
mufan are well aware of this

672
00:25:28,610 --> 00:25:27,299
first of all I appreciate your stance so

673
00:25:29,870 --> 00:25:28,620
much that you're not a scientist and

674
00:25:31,730 --> 00:25:29,880
what you're doing here is not science

675
00:25:34,130 --> 00:25:31,740
but I do think there's something really

676
00:25:35,330 --> 00:25:34,140
valuable in your approach because I

677
00:25:37,669 --> 00:25:35,340
think that

678
00:25:40,669 --> 00:25:37,679
what people can miss is that

679
00:25:42,649 --> 00:25:40,679
transformational nature of these

680
00:25:43,850 --> 00:25:42,659
encounters I mean for me as a researcher

681
00:25:47,210 --> 00:25:43,860
who's been doing this for a while now

682
00:25:49,490 --> 00:25:47,220
that to me has emerged as by far the

683
00:25:51,230 --> 00:25:49,500
most interesting part of this probably

684
00:25:54,289 --> 00:25:51,240
because of how much it's profoundly

685
00:25:56,110 --> 00:25:54,299
changed me and my life on a personal and

686
00:25:58,549 --> 00:25:56,120
spiritual level but then how I see it

687
00:26:00,409 --> 00:25:58,559
impact other people as well in the

688
00:26:03,169 --> 00:26:00,419
Outreach that I get from listeners and I

689
00:26:05,269 --> 00:26:03,179
don't know what that means I don't know

690
00:26:08,450 --> 00:26:05,279
and it's not something that we can set

691
00:26:10,370 --> 00:26:08,460
up an experiment really to look at it's

692
00:26:13,909 --> 00:26:10,380
always going to be anecdotal but I think

693
00:26:15,590 --> 00:26:13,919
to deny that part of anomalous

694
00:26:18,110 --> 00:26:15,600
experience or to not take it into

695
00:26:20,390 --> 00:26:18,120
account is to kind of miss the forest

696
00:26:22,549 --> 00:26:20,400
for the trees so I think there's a lot

697
00:26:24,830 --> 00:26:22,559
of value especially when we're dealing

698
00:26:27,289 --> 00:26:24,840
with something so unknown to allow

699
00:26:29,570 --> 00:26:27,299
ourselves to open our mind up to ideas

700
00:26:32,090 --> 00:26:29,580
that don't make sense and that are

701
00:26:33,769 --> 00:26:32,100
really surprising if we ignore the

702
00:26:35,269 --> 00:26:33,779
surprising patterns that emerge like

703
00:26:36,710 --> 00:26:35,279
that in and of itself even if we're not

704
00:26:38,269 --> 00:26:36,720
doing science that in and of itself

705
00:26:40,310 --> 00:26:38,279
isn't very scientific well the

706
00:26:41,810 --> 00:26:40,320
scientific method is wonderful for doing

707
00:26:43,610 --> 00:26:41,820
certain things but I think that you know

708
00:26:45,049 --> 00:26:43,620
Woodward and Bernstein weren't beholden

709
00:26:46,909 --> 00:26:45,059
to the scientific method when they were

710
00:26:49,430 --> 00:26:46,919
writing about Watergate right they were

711
00:26:50,990 --> 00:26:49,440
adhering to journalistic ethics and then

712
00:26:52,549 --> 00:26:51,000
in a courtroom it's not scientific in a

713
00:26:55,669 --> 00:26:52,559
courtroom but you're dealing with a

714
00:26:58,789 --> 00:26:55,679
legal framework and people go to jail on

715
00:27:02,090 --> 00:26:58,799
anecdotal evidence and I've called

716
00:27:04,730 --> 00:27:02,100
myself a folklorist right so I feel like

717
00:27:07,010 --> 00:27:04,740
I'm collecting modern stories modern

718
00:27:09,529 --> 00:27:07,020
folklore present-day folklore and it

719
00:27:11,930 --> 00:27:09,539
dovetails beautifully with folklore from

720
00:27:16,190 --> 00:27:11,940
our ancient past

721
00:27:17,450 --> 00:27:16,200
and from our pop culture and from our I

722
00:27:20,090 --> 00:27:17,460
would almost want to say our Collective

723
00:27:22,490 --> 00:27:20,100
Consciousness because these owl accounts

724
00:27:24,710 --> 00:27:22,500
show up all over the world very similar

725
00:27:27,409 --> 00:27:24,720
and you know how that works I don't

726
00:27:29,450 --> 00:27:27,419
pretend to know all I can do is

727
00:27:30,710 --> 00:27:29,460
speculate sometimes I feel like I

728
00:27:32,930 --> 00:27:30,720
speculate too much but I try to

729
00:27:34,850 --> 00:27:32,940
speculate as little as possible but I

730
00:27:36,649 --> 00:27:34,860
just want to get my ideas out there I do

731
00:27:38,149 --> 00:27:36,659
not know if my ideas are correct you

732
00:27:40,909 --> 00:27:38,159
know in the book of The Messengers I

733
00:27:43,490 --> 00:27:40,919
tried my very best to look at the owl

734
00:27:46,250 --> 00:27:43,500
mystery backwards forwards upside down

735
00:27:48,590 --> 00:27:46,260
you know every way I could think of and

736
00:27:50,990 --> 00:27:48,600
so I came up with a lot of maybes but

737
00:27:53,330 --> 00:27:51,000
very little that I truly know

738
00:27:56,390 --> 00:27:53,340
concretely and I'm and I want to be

739
00:27:58,630 --> 00:27:56,400
clear about that absolutely I do think

740
00:28:03,470 --> 00:27:58,640
though there's something about truly

741
00:28:06,110 --> 00:28:03,480
anomalous experiences that Force us into

742
00:28:07,669 --> 00:28:06,120
the role of the Storyteller because when

743
00:28:09,890 --> 00:28:07,679
we don't know what we're dealing with

744
00:28:11,450 --> 00:28:09,900
everyone is kind of put into a position

745
00:28:14,390 --> 00:28:11,460
when they have an experience like that

746
00:28:16,430 --> 00:28:14,400
of interpreting it and in that way that

747
00:28:18,950 --> 00:28:16,440
interpretation in and of itself even

748
00:28:20,870 --> 00:28:18,960
when it's approached with as much

749
00:28:23,269 --> 00:28:20,880
objectivity as possible and with a true

750
00:28:25,549 --> 00:28:23,279
desire to come to some sort of rational

751
00:28:27,470 --> 00:28:25,559
conclusion it's ultimately a creative

752
00:28:29,930 --> 00:28:27,480
process because we just don't know and

753
00:28:33,590 --> 00:28:29,940
so I have wondered sometimes if perhaps

754
00:28:36,470 --> 00:28:33,600
a more literary approach to

755
00:28:39,769 --> 00:28:36,480
understanding these is necessary because

756
00:28:42,110 --> 00:28:39,779
in some ways any way that we choose to

757
00:28:43,730 --> 00:28:42,120
express our anomalous experiences to

758
00:28:45,409 --> 00:28:43,740
another human being it's a story that

759
00:28:47,930 --> 00:28:45,419
we've told ourselves about ourselves

760
00:28:49,370 --> 00:28:47,940
that we have no real way of verifying as

761
00:28:51,289 --> 00:28:49,380
true I don't know if that makes sense

762
00:28:53,269 --> 00:28:51,299
where I'm going with oh yeah yeah yeah

763
00:28:55,130 --> 00:28:53,279
yeah yeah so I mean you go to like the

764
00:28:56,690 --> 00:28:55,140
UFO conference right where a UFO

765
00:28:58,190 --> 00:28:56,700
conference you have permission

766
00:28:59,630 --> 00:28:58,200
to turn to the person next to you and

767
00:29:01,070 --> 00:28:59,640
say so what brings you to a UFO

768
00:29:04,010 --> 00:29:01,080
conference and very often they'll say

769
00:29:06,950 --> 00:29:04,020
like oh I had a UFO land in my backyard

770
00:29:09,769 --> 00:29:06,960
and these beings came out and they told

771
00:29:11,690 --> 00:29:09,779
me they were from the Pleiades and they

772
00:29:14,210 --> 00:29:11,700
were here to bring benevolence to

773
00:29:16,490 --> 00:29:14,220
Mankind and so people will extrapolate

774
00:29:18,529 --> 00:29:16,500
and paint a picture around their

775
00:29:20,630 --> 00:29:18,539
experience and then another person will

776
00:29:22,610 --> 00:29:20,640
say oh a UFO landed in my backyard and

777
00:29:24,289 --> 00:29:22,620
these bastards were from these like

778
00:29:25,730 --> 00:29:24,299
where they were here to study us

779
00:29:26,990 --> 00:29:25,740
scientifically and I don't want to be

780
00:29:28,909 --> 00:29:27,000
part of their thing and so you know it's

781
00:29:31,010 --> 00:29:28,919
akin to kidnapping what they did to me

782
00:29:33,310 --> 00:29:31,020
and my family that kind of thing so you

783
00:29:35,630 --> 00:29:33,320
have two diametrically opposite

784
00:29:37,669 --> 00:29:35,640
interpretations of what might be the

785
00:29:40,190 --> 00:29:37,679
very same event a flying saucer lands in

786
00:29:42,710 --> 00:29:40,200
someone's backyard yeah no exactly

787
00:29:45,649 --> 00:29:42,720
exactly something that I really

788
00:29:48,470 --> 00:29:45,659
resonated with in The Messengers was the

789
00:29:50,029 --> 00:29:48,480
idea of the maybe people can you talk a

790
00:29:51,889 --> 00:29:50,039
little bit about what you mean by that

791
00:29:54,169 --> 00:29:51,899
and what sorts of experiences typically

792
00:29:57,049 --> 00:29:54,179
fall into that category

793
00:29:59,090 --> 00:29:57,059
well so there's a preconception that

794
00:30:00,350 --> 00:29:59,100
like people are very forthright and they

795
00:30:01,850 --> 00:30:00,360
know what their experience is and I've

796
00:30:03,590 --> 00:30:01,860
met with plenty of those people saved

797
00:30:05,990 --> 00:30:03,600
for concretely that they've had this

798
00:30:09,409 --> 00:30:06,000
experience they are far outnumbered by

799
00:30:11,450 --> 00:30:09,419
the people who are trouble and confused

800
00:30:13,549 --> 00:30:11,460
and trying to make sense of their direct

801
00:30:15,950 --> 00:30:13,559
experience so here's this Friend of Mine

802
00:30:17,570 --> 00:30:15,960
Derek this is very early on in the story

803
00:30:20,510 --> 00:30:17,580
this is one of the very first really

804
00:30:22,490 --> 00:30:20,520
powerful owl and UFO stories ahead young

805
00:30:23,990 --> 00:30:22,500
guy he's out camping with his friends in

806
00:30:25,630 --> 00:30:24,000
the deserts of Arizona he was from the

807
00:30:27,649 --> 00:30:25,640
East he was blown away by the desert

808
00:30:29,389 --> 00:30:27,659
laying out at night there's a million

809
00:30:30,529 --> 00:30:29,399
stars and he and then him and his friend

810
00:30:32,750 --> 00:30:30,539
look up

811
00:30:34,730 --> 00:30:32,760
at a cactus on top of the cactus is an

812
00:30:36,470 --> 00:30:34,740
owl and they both get this kind of

813
00:30:38,570 --> 00:30:36,480
sinking feeling like oh that's intense

814
00:30:39,950 --> 00:30:38,580
which is normal let's response most

815
00:30:42,710 --> 00:30:39,960
people have or many people I have on

816
00:30:45,169 --> 00:30:42,720
this you know the owl flies off moments

817
00:30:47,269 --> 00:30:45,179
later a triangle-shaped craft comes

818
00:30:50,269 --> 00:30:47,279
right over their camp and I sat with

819
00:30:53,029 --> 00:30:50,279
Derek and he tried to describe he fought

820
00:30:55,370 --> 00:30:53,039
to describe how this craft was hugging

821
00:30:57,830 --> 00:30:55,380
the terrain of the landscape and he was

822
00:30:59,870 --> 00:30:57,840
not describing a helicopter or a jet

823
00:31:01,430 --> 00:30:59,880
plane or anything it was something

824
00:31:03,470 --> 00:31:01,440
terribly unusual and it really

825
00:31:05,990 --> 00:31:03,480
distressed him a few days later he has

826
00:31:07,490 --> 00:31:06,000
another sighting he's driving in a car

827
00:31:10,430 --> 00:31:07,500
in Arizona the sunroof's down and

828
00:31:12,769 --> 00:31:10,440
there's this weird dot like following

829
00:31:14,930 --> 00:31:12,779
the car above the car and then he says

830
00:31:16,130 --> 00:31:14,940
you know this was sort of a point in my

831
00:31:17,389 --> 00:31:16,140
life where I was struggling and

832
00:31:19,909 --> 00:31:17,399
searching in a young guy and then I had

833
00:31:21,529 --> 00:31:19,919
a spiritual awakening like okay like I

834
00:31:23,330 --> 00:31:21,539
didn't ask him he just came out with

835
00:31:26,330 --> 00:31:23,340
that and he said oh and I had this

836
00:31:28,130 --> 00:31:26,340
dreams where it felt like I was being

837
00:31:30,529 --> 00:31:28,140
floated through the wall and he just had

838
00:31:33,649 --> 00:31:30,539
a handful of these little stories but he

839
00:31:35,630 --> 00:31:33,659
did not have the concrete memories that

840
00:31:37,370 --> 00:31:35,640
like you would want someone to have and

841
00:31:38,630 --> 00:31:37,380
I couldn't make him have these concrete

842
00:31:40,310 --> 00:31:38,640
like I couldn't ask him leading

843
00:31:42,769 --> 00:31:40,320
questions I couldn't if he got

844
00:31:46,310 --> 00:31:42,779
hypnotized I would be very cautious to

845
00:31:48,049 --> 00:31:46,320
take that as gospel so whatever story

846
00:31:50,389 --> 00:31:48,059
emerged under hypnosis I would be

847
00:31:53,389 --> 00:31:50,399
cautious to take that as possible so

848
00:31:54,950 --> 00:31:53,399
like I sensed like always you something

849
00:31:56,870 --> 00:31:54,960
more might have happened

850
00:31:58,370 --> 00:31:56,880
but I couldn't prove it so this is the

851
00:32:00,529 --> 00:31:58,380
way I say it like if I had a staff of a

852
00:32:03,350 --> 00:32:00,539
hundred and a 10 million dollar budget

853
00:32:05,510 --> 00:32:03,360
and I researched some who might have had

854
00:32:07,850 --> 00:32:05,520
a UFO contact experience I could spend

855
00:32:09,649 --> 00:32:07,860
all that money in Manpower and I'd never

856
00:32:11,330 --> 00:32:09,659
I might find some interesting stuff but

857
00:32:12,710 --> 00:32:11,340
I would not get what I would call an

858
00:32:14,810 --> 00:32:12,720
answer

859
00:32:16,970 --> 00:32:14,820
so I'm only one person I can't I can

860
00:32:18,649 --> 00:32:16,980
only just kind of vaguely have a

861
00:32:20,570 --> 00:32:18,659
conversation with not vaguely I can have

862
00:32:22,909 --> 00:32:20,580
a very deep conversation but I can get a

863
00:32:24,710 --> 00:32:22,919
vague impression on what might have

864
00:32:26,630 --> 00:32:24,720
happened but it's not my job to say what

865
00:32:28,549 --> 00:32:26,640
might have happened it's like my job is

866
00:32:30,350 --> 00:32:28,559
to tell their story

867
00:32:32,029 --> 00:32:30,360
and so like this kind of sense that

868
00:32:34,430 --> 00:32:32,039
maybe these people

869
00:32:35,710 --> 00:32:34,440
had UFO contact so the maybe term is

870
00:32:38,810 --> 00:32:35,720
actually I don't use that term anymore

871
00:32:40,130 --> 00:32:38,820
and the term I use now is Seeker that

872
00:32:41,630 --> 00:32:40,140
seems a little better the people who

873
00:32:44,330 --> 00:32:41,640
have had these experience The Owl and

874
00:32:46,669 --> 00:32:44,340
UFO experience tend to be if

875
00:32:48,649 --> 00:32:46,679
Seeker would be a very loose work to say

876
00:32:50,810 --> 00:32:48,659
but I like on the cover of the first

877
00:32:53,750 --> 00:32:50,820
book The Messengers owls synchronicity

878
00:32:56,149 --> 00:32:53,760
and the UFO abductee and I've had people

879
00:32:58,549 --> 00:32:56,159
listen to my experiences and tell me

880
00:33:00,830 --> 00:32:58,559
that I was an abductee and I didn't like

881
00:33:02,269 --> 00:33:00,840
it I thought it was rude and they were

882
00:33:04,310 --> 00:33:02,279
out of line and I didn't want to hear it

883
00:33:05,630 --> 00:33:04,320
and now I'm kind of coming and they're

884
00:33:06,769 --> 00:33:05,640
probably right but at the time I didn't

885
00:33:09,169 --> 00:33:06,779
like it so I'm not going to do it to

886
00:33:12,470 --> 00:33:09,179
anyone else so that was a term I came up

887
00:33:15,350 --> 00:33:12,480
with to go a few tiers down rather than

888
00:33:17,750 --> 00:33:15,360
the very provocative term of abductee

889
00:33:20,570 --> 00:33:17,760
well I think it's really interesting how

890
00:33:24,649 --> 00:33:20,580
that can kind of open up for people you

891
00:33:26,870 --> 00:33:24,659
know I came into this work not really

892
00:33:29,330 --> 00:33:26,880
identifying as an experiencer I've seen

893
00:33:30,889 --> 00:33:29,340
a UFO and then after doing this work for

894
00:33:32,810 --> 00:33:30,899
a long time I actually realized that I

895
00:33:34,070 --> 00:33:32,820
had seen another UFO that I didn't think

896
00:33:35,690 --> 00:33:34,080
of it as one because it didn't look like

897
00:33:38,330 --> 00:33:35,700
when I thought a UFO should look like

898
00:33:40,970 --> 00:33:38,340
and I progressed to the point where I do

899
00:33:42,889 --> 00:33:40,980
consider myself to be an experiencer and

900
00:33:46,310 --> 00:33:42,899
it's a big part of my life but I don't

901
00:33:47,509 --> 00:33:46,320
consider myself to be an abductee at the

902
00:33:50,029 --> 00:33:47,519
same time

903
00:33:53,090 --> 00:33:50,039
what really struck me in your work very

904
00:33:54,950 --> 00:33:53,100
okay so after I read I read the Unseen

905
00:33:56,210 --> 00:33:54,960
first and then I went back because I had

906
00:33:58,669 --> 00:33:56,220
the messengers on my bookshelf and I

907
00:34:00,470 --> 00:33:58,679
read The Messengers and I really got

908
00:34:03,049 --> 00:34:00,480
obsessed with this memory that I have

909
00:34:04,310 --> 00:34:03,059
from when I was a kid I remember it was

910
00:34:06,769 --> 00:34:04,320
I was probably like seven or eight years

911
00:34:09,649 --> 00:34:06,779
old I was living in Iowa and I remember

912
00:34:11,629 --> 00:34:09,659
being in a car with my family my dad was

913
00:34:12,550 --> 00:34:11,639
driving my brother and I were in the

914
00:34:16,010 --> 00:34:12,560
back seat

915
00:34:18,050 --> 00:34:16,020
and there was a big storm that came up

916
00:34:19,669 --> 00:34:18,060
and it was raining really really hard

917
00:34:23,329 --> 00:34:19,679
and the water was Rising on the road and

918
00:34:24,829 --> 00:34:23,339
it was getting dangerous to drive and my

919
00:34:28,129 --> 00:34:24,839
dad wanted to pull over and stop

920
00:34:29,510 --> 00:34:28,139
somewhere and ride it out but then my

921
00:34:32,450 --> 00:34:29,520
mom looked out through the back window

922
00:34:34,490 --> 00:34:32,460
and there was a tornado that was

923
00:34:36,349 --> 00:34:34,500
following us like right behind the car

924
00:34:38,030 --> 00:34:36,359
and so we didn't have the option to stop

925
00:34:40,369 --> 00:34:38,040
we had to keep going and it was very

926
00:34:42,530 --> 00:34:40,379
scary and I intellectually I've always

927
00:34:44,389 --> 00:34:42,540
remembered that it was a tornado but

928
00:34:46,490 --> 00:34:44,399
whenever I I've always had a very clear

929
00:34:47,990 --> 00:34:46,500
memory like I have memories to go back

930
00:34:49,369 --> 00:34:48,000
to when I was before I was even one

931
00:34:51,290 --> 00:34:49,379
years old that had been verified like

932
00:34:52,909 --> 00:34:51,300
things I couldn't have known events I

933
00:34:54,290 --> 00:34:52,919
couldn't have remembered but when I put

934
00:34:56,450 --> 00:34:54,300
myself back in that memory and it's

935
00:35:00,770 --> 00:34:56,460
always been this way it's not a tornado

936
00:35:03,829 --> 00:35:00,780
it's a UFO and so I got obsessed with

937
00:35:05,930 --> 00:35:03,839
this idea and I called my mom my dad's

938
00:35:07,849 --> 00:35:05,940
past many years ago but I called my mom

939
00:35:09,770 --> 00:35:07,859
and I was like am I crazy like the

940
00:35:11,990 --> 00:35:09,780
tornado thing happened right and she was

941
00:35:15,170 --> 00:35:12,000
like yeah it happened but apparently my

942
00:35:16,730 --> 00:35:15,180
dad wasn't and the car it was my mom and

943
00:35:19,130 --> 00:35:16,740
my brother and I and she was the one who

944
00:35:20,569 --> 00:35:19,140
was driving but the tornado was there

945
00:35:22,130 --> 00:35:20,579
and that's one of those things where

946
00:35:24,950 --> 00:35:22,140
like there's nothing to hold on to there

947
00:35:26,810 --> 00:35:24,960
right there's no reason for me to read

948
00:35:28,970 --> 00:35:26,820
anything more into that and I'm very

949
00:35:31,250 --> 00:35:28,980
aware of the fact that I was young I was

950
00:35:34,670 --> 00:35:31,260
impressionable that was a scary moment

951
00:35:36,770 --> 00:35:34,680
for me and so who knows and maybe I saw

952
00:35:39,470 --> 00:35:36,780
something on television around that time

953
00:35:43,370 --> 00:35:39,480
and all of those things I regard to be

954
00:35:45,109 --> 00:35:43,380
very possible explanations but there's

955
00:35:46,550 --> 00:35:45,119
something about it that I can't let go

956
00:35:48,710 --> 00:35:46,560
of there's something about it that's

957
00:35:50,150 --> 00:35:48,720
that haunts me and I I think there's

958
00:35:52,790 --> 00:35:50,160
probably a lot of people like you're

959
00:35:55,550 --> 00:35:52,800
saying you have those kinds of not quite

960
00:35:58,790 --> 00:35:55,560
you wouldn't consider yourself to be an

961
00:36:01,250 --> 00:35:58,800
abductee and yet there's something weird

962
00:36:02,930 --> 00:36:01,260
where it doesn't quite line up at the

963
00:36:04,849 --> 00:36:02,940
same time and the story I have with

964
00:36:07,490 --> 00:36:04,859
Kristen is not that exciting of a story

965
00:36:10,010 --> 00:36:07,500
we saw some owls right they were real

966
00:36:12,230 --> 00:36:10,020
owls you know it's kind of odd but but

967
00:36:14,810 --> 00:36:12,240
it changed the direction of my life yeah

968
00:36:16,609 --> 00:36:14,820
it's really fascinating there's another

969
00:36:18,050 --> 00:36:16,619
idea from The Messengers that I think is

970
00:36:20,030 --> 00:36:18,060
really important to highlight especially

971
00:36:23,210 --> 00:36:20,040
for people who might be newer to these

972
00:36:25,069 --> 00:36:23,220
ideas which is what you call the Paradox

973
00:36:26,750 --> 00:36:25,079
syndrome can you explain a little bit

974
00:36:29,089 --> 00:36:26,760
about what you mean by that

975
00:36:31,790 --> 00:36:29,099
so as far as the Paradox syndrome I had

976
00:36:32,870 --> 00:36:31,800
to just pick a name for a pattern that I

977
00:36:36,710 --> 00:36:32,880
was seeing

978
00:36:40,010 --> 00:36:36,720
and what I was Finding was people would

979
00:36:41,930 --> 00:36:40,020
share accounts that were confusing like

980
00:36:43,130 --> 00:36:41,940
they were very difficult to tell

981
00:36:45,109 --> 00:36:43,140
because they didn't really have a true

982
00:36:46,430 --> 00:36:45,119
beginning and didn't have a true end and

983
00:36:47,990 --> 00:36:46,440
there was no punch line at the end it

984
00:36:49,849 --> 00:36:48,000
was like a regular story as a beginning

985
00:36:51,650 --> 00:36:49,859
middle and end and a conclusion and you

986
00:36:53,450 --> 00:36:51,660
can go oh that was a good story

987
00:36:56,390 --> 00:36:53,460
the people will tell these stories that

988
00:36:59,569 --> 00:36:56,400
are all mixed up and that overlap with a

989
00:37:01,670 --> 00:36:59,579
sort of weirdness that doesn't

990
00:37:04,910 --> 00:37:01,680
have an easy answer are you familiar

991
00:37:07,069 --> 00:37:04,920
with the Zen Cohen right yes so a Zen

992
00:37:09,710 --> 00:37:07,079
Cohen is a question that cannot be

993
00:37:12,589 --> 00:37:09,720
answered so like a Buddhist monk would

994
00:37:14,150 --> 00:37:12,599
tell the student to meditate on let's

995
00:37:16,550 --> 00:37:14,160
say what is the sound of one hand

996
00:37:20,710 --> 00:37:16,560
clapping right there is no sound of one

997
00:37:26,210 --> 00:37:20,720
hand clapping it's purposely absurd and

998
00:37:27,650 --> 00:37:26,220
within the lore is this absurdity and

999
00:37:29,089 --> 00:37:27,660
Jacques Valley has written beautifully

1000
00:37:31,910 --> 00:37:29,099
on this Whitley strieber has written

1001
00:37:35,230 --> 00:37:31,920
beautifully on this and that absurdity

1002
00:37:37,609 --> 00:37:35,240
to me brings with it a form of

1003
00:37:39,109 --> 00:37:37,619
confirmation I'm cautious to say

1004
00:37:40,970 --> 00:37:39,119
confirmation that implies a lot but what

1005
00:37:43,069 --> 00:37:40,980
I say is when people tell me a story

1006
00:37:46,730 --> 00:37:43,079
that does not make sense that it's

1007
00:37:49,010 --> 00:37:46,740
open-ended and absurd my ears perk up I

1008
00:37:51,109 --> 00:37:49,020
pay extra close attention to their story

1009
00:37:53,870 --> 00:37:51,119
my second book which is called stoicer

1010
00:37:56,329 --> 00:37:53,880
Messengers The problem is to tell

1011
00:37:59,750 --> 00:37:56,339
someone's story is basically like

1012
00:38:01,970 --> 00:37:59,760
telling a novel there's a lot there and

1013
00:38:04,370 --> 00:38:01,980
it's often confusing and mixed up and

1014
00:38:05,930 --> 00:38:04,380
scrambled up and it was that was a

1015
00:38:08,569 --> 00:38:05,940
difficult book to write because I chose

1016
00:38:11,510 --> 00:38:08,579
19 separate stories and each one of

1017
00:38:12,710 --> 00:38:11,520
these stories was not an easy story to

1018
00:38:16,130 --> 00:38:12,720
tell because it didn't have a good

1019
00:38:18,770 --> 00:38:16,140
beginning middle and end but it had that

1020
00:38:21,109 --> 00:38:18,780
confusing overlapping and I'll tell you

1021
00:38:25,430 --> 00:38:21,119
wild synchronicities embedded into these

1022
00:38:27,770 --> 00:38:25,440
accounts and so those stories sound more

1023
00:38:30,349 --> 00:38:27,780
like a dream it follows dream logic

1024
00:38:32,750 --> 00:38:30,359
rather than our day-to-day waking logic

1025
00:38:35,329 --> 00:38:32,760
and that is what fascinates me about

1026
00:38:38,030 --> 00:38:35,339
these accounts and that also I can say

1027
00:38:39,710 --> 00:38:38,040
many points in my life where my own

1028
00:38:42,950 --> 00:38:39,720
direct experience seemed to fall into

1029
00:38:45,589 --> 00:38:42,960
that paradoxical Madness and people

1030
00:38:48,230 --> 00:38:45,599
often get very lost because

1031
00:38:49,430 --> 00:38:48,240
this mystery presents itself as a

1032
00:38:50,990 --> 00:38:49,440
conundrum

1033
00:38:54,829 --> 00:38:51,000
made real

1034
00:38:56,450 --> 00:38:54,839
yeah absolutely in The Messengers you

1035
00:38:58,069 --> 00:38:56,460
definitely tell stories including your

1036
00:39:01,069 --> 00:38:58,079
own where it's pretty clear that what

1037
00:39:04,210 --> 00:39:01,079
you're talking about is real actual owls

1038
00:39:06,290 --> 00:39:04,220
but you also talk about cases

1039
00:39:08,750 --> 00:39:06,300
particularly ones that seem to have this

1040
00:39:12,230 --> 00:39:08,760
paradoxical kind of nature to it where

1041
00:39:14,329 --> 00:39:12,240
owls are potentially serving almost as a

1042
00:39:16,370 --> 00:39:14,339
screen memory can you talk a little bit

1043
00:39:17,690 --> 00:39:16,380
about what you mean by that and what

1044
00:39:19,609 --> 00:39:17,700
that looks like

1045
00:39:21,829 --> 00:39:19,619
we'll sit early out of my research I

1046
00:39:23,690 --> 00:39:21,839
reached out to a lot of people Bud

1047
00:39:25,250 --> 00:39:23,700
Hopkins was still live and I had long

1048
00:39:27,890 --> 00:39:25,260
conversations with him about exactly

1049
00:39:29,870 --> 00:39:27,900
this as well as Dave Jacobs who's still

1050
00:39:31,910 --> 00:39:29,880
around and then I will certainly show up

1051
00:39:34,370 --> 00:39:31,920
in John Mack's work

1052
00:39:36,230 --> 00:39:34,380
so you would ask a UFO researcher

1053
00:39:37,670 --> 00:39:36,240
hey do you have any accounts of owls and

1054
00:39:39,410 --> 00:39:37,680
they said oh we get owls all the time

1055
00:39:41,510 --> 00:39:39,420
all the time they show up but they had

1056
00:39:43,430 --> 00:39:41,520
screen memories now screen memory

1057
00:39:44,990 --> 00:39:43,440
implies so the textbook screen memory

1058
00:39:46,370 --> 00:39:45,000
would be wait here's the story this is

1059
00:39:48,290 --> 00:39:46,380
this will cover a lot

1060
00:39:51,230 --> 00:39:48,300
you're familiar with Dolores Cannon and

1061
00:39:53,390 --> 00:39:51,240
her work yes so Dolores Cannon did a

1062
00:39:55,190 --> 00:39:53,400
form of hypnotherapy where she worked

1063
00:39:57,650 --> 00:39:55,200
with people not often she worked with

1064
00:39:59,870 --> 00:39:57,660
people who had UFO contact in the later

1065
00:40:01,730 --> 00:39:59,880
part of her life but she also didn't I

1066
00:40:03,890 --> 00:40:01,740
almost like a form of like hypnotic

1067
00:40:07,730 --> 00:40:03,900
divination it was pretty hard to sum up

1068
00:40:10,430 --> 00:40:07,740
but she was a hypnotherapist doing

1069
00:40:12,589 --> 00:40:10,440
um clinical work in helping people

1070
00:40:14,810 --> 00:40:12,599
reducing stress and stopping smoking

1071
00:40:16,130 --> 00:40:14,820
like the recognizable benefits of

1072
00:40:19,190 --> 00:40:16,140
hypnosis

1073
00:40:21,050 --> 00:40:19,200
and she had a meeting with her

1074
00:40:21,829 --> 00:40:21,060
co-workers at the clinic she was working

1075
00:40:23,210 --> 00:40:21,839
at

1076
00:40:24,530 --> 00:40:23,220
and they had a monthly meeting and they

1077
00:40:26,390 --> 00:40:24,540
would check in and chat and she would

1078
00:40:27,650 --> 00:40:26,400
said you know what's showing up in my

1079
00:40:29,329 --> 00:40:27,660
work is that people when I put them

1080
00:40:31,370 --> 00:40:29,339
under hypnosis they'll start telling me

1081
00:40:33,589 --> 00:40:31,380
these weird UFO stories

1082
00:40:34,670 --> 00:40:33,599
and she was this is like I have to

1083
00:40:37,490 --> 00:40:34,680
figure out whether I'm going to follow

1084
00:40:38,930 --> 00:40:37,500
this or not is this a real thing that I

1085
00:40:42,050 --> 00:40:38,940
should pursue and should I like I have

1086
00:40:43,609 --> 00:40:42,060
to decide whether I follow this path and

1087
00:40:45,230 --> 00:40:43,619
ask do I ask more questions about the

1088
00:40:47,810 --> 00:40:45,240
UFO thing or do I stick with my career

1089
00:40:49,910 --> 00:40:47,820
here so she leaves the meeting she

1090
00:40:51,430 --> 00:40:49,920
drives home and on the drive home she's

1091
00:40:54,170 --> 00:40:51,440
driving a truck and she's in Arkansas

1092
00:40:56,210 --> 00:40:54,180
and there's a big owl on the road

1093
00:40:57,589 --> 00:40:56,220
she pulls up to the owl and she's in a

1094
00:40:59,690 --> 00:40:57,599
big truck and the owl looks over the

1095
00:41:01,430 --> 00:40:59,700
hood of the truck looking right at her

1096
00:41:03,230 --> 00:41:01,440
now you take the biggest owl in the

1097
00:41:05,390 --> 00:41:03,240
world in the smallest truck

1098
00:41:07,430 --> 00:41:05,400
there's the owl simply cannot look over

1099
00:41:10,849 --> 00:41:07,440
the hood of a truck or even a little car

1100
00:41:12,349 --> 00:41:10,859
they're simply not that big so she gets

1101
00:41:13,910 --> 00:41:12,359
home she actually saw that all a number

1102
00:41:15,230 --> 00:41:13,920
of times it flew further down the road

1103
00:41:17,650 --> 00:41:15,240
and would stop and she'd have to pull up

1104
00:41:20,810 --> 00:41:17,660
to it and then look at it so

1105
00:41:23,870 --> 00:41:20,820
she later realized

1106
00:41:25,849 --> 00:41:23,880
like that's that's impossible there's no

1107
00:41:27,109 --> 00:41:25,859
such thing as an owl that big so I saw

1108
00:41:28,490 --> 00:41:27,119
something she looked it up and she tried

1109
00:41:31,970 --> 00:41:28,500
to research house and there's no owl

1110
00:41:34,069 --> 00:41:31,980
that matched the owl she saw and so the

1111
00:41:35,630 --> 00:41:34,079
question I would ask as a researcher

1112
00:41:38,450 --> 00:41:35,640
what was happening here life leading up

1113
00:41:39,710 --> 00:41:38,460
to the event and she was at a point in

1114
00:41:42,230 --> 00:41:39,720
her life where she said am I going to

1115
00:41:44,569 --> 00:41:42,240
look into this UFO mystery and obviously

1116
00:41:47,089 --> 00:41:44,579
yes she did look into the UFO mystery

1117
00:41:49,490 --> 00:41:47,099
because that was that turned into the

1118
00:41:51,710 --> 00:41:49,500
core of her career so what happens

1119
00:41:55,010 --> 00:41:51,720
oftentimes the owl on the lonely road is

1120
00:41:57,589 --> 00:41:55,020
very common and people will see that and

1121
00:41:59,630 --> 00:41:57,599
later let's say go under hypnosis and

1122
00:42:01,430 --> 00:41:59,640
the hypnotherapist will say describe the

1123
00:42:03,829 --> 00:42:01,440
owl and they'll say well it's got a bald

1124
00:42:05,810 --> 00:42:03,839
head and big black eyes and it's skinny

1125
00:42:07,609 --> 00:42:05,820
and it's got a little spacesuit on and I

1126
00:42:10,069 --> 00:42:07,619
don't think that's an owl

1127
00:42:12,770 --> 00:42:10,079
but that's also true of deer and

1128
00:42:14,329 --> 00:42:12,780
raccoons and giant squirrels and firemen

1129
00:42:16,910 --> 00:42:14,339
and so there's other things that show up

1130
00:42:19,190 --> 00:42:16,920
as this screen memory so the implication

1131
00:42:21,710 --> 00:42:19,200
would be that

1132
00:42:24,770 --> 00:42:21,720
these let's just say the gray alien

1133
00:42:27,349 --> 00:42:24,780
would be standing in the road would be

1134
00:42:29,630 --> 00:42:27,359
able to put a psychic impression into

1135
00:42:32,089 --> 00:42:29,640
the mind of the Observer so they would

1136
00:42:34,130 --> 00:42:32,099
be looking out their windshield at a

1137
00:42:36,710 --> 00:42:34,140
gray alien but they would recognize they

1138
00:42:38,930 --> 00:42:36,720
would see their perception would see the

1139
00:42:40,490 --> 00:42:38,940
screen memory whether that's done

1140
00:42:42,530 --> 00:42:40,500
through technology or whether that's

1141
00:42:44,569 --> 00:42:42,540
done through psychic means I can't

1142
00:42:46,730 --> 00:42:44,579
answer that but it is a very

1143
00:42:50,030 --> 00:42:46,740
consistently reported in the literature

1144
00:42:52,069 --> 00:42:50,040
oh that's so fascinating I'm really

1145
00:42:55,190 --> 00:42:52,079
intrigued by that

1146
00:42:57,470 --> 00:42:55,200
so I love to switch gears a little bit

1147
00:43:00,410 --> 00:42:57,480
and talk about your newer book The

1148
00:43:01,550 --> 00:43:00,420
Unseen I was absolutely thrilled to have

1149
00:43:03,770 --> 00:43:01,560
the privilege of being one of the first

1150
00:43:05,930 --> 00:43:03,780
people to read the book I read it very

1151
00:43:07,970 --> 00:43:05,940
quickly I started reading it one night

1152
00:43:10,190 --> 00:43:07,980
before bed and I read it literally until

1153
00:43:12,470 --> 00:43:10,200
I just passed out and then woke up in

1154
00:43:15,109 --> 00:43:12,480
the morning and finished it and I just

1155
00:43:16,910 --> 00:43:15,119
loved it so much and I'm so excited for

1156
00:43:18,170 --> 00:43:16,920
it to be out in the world I'd love you

1157
00:43:19,910 --> 00:43:18,180
to talk through sort of your motivations

1158
00:43:21,650 --> 00:43:19,920
and process for writing the book because

1159
00:43:23,450 --> 00:43:21,660
I know that this was a giant undertaking

1160
00:43:24,890 --> 00:43:23,460
for you and kind of a departure as being

1161
00:43:26,510 --> 00:43:24,900
a fictional art

1162
00:43:28,790 --> 00:43:26,520
so here I'm going to turn the tables on

1163
00:43:31,490 --> 00:43:28,800
you real quick because so this is this

1164
00:43:33,609 --> 00:43:31,500
is interesting for me so you read the

1165
00:43:36,050 --> 00:43:33,619
Unseen first which is a book of fiction

1166
00:43:38,569 --> 00:43:36,060
and then after that you read The

1167
00:43:41,150 --> 00:43:38,579
Messengers yeah how did those dovetail

1168
00:43:43,309 --> 00:43:41,160
together you must have sensed us like a

1169
00:43:46,130 --> 00:43:43,319
similar mood and flavor in both those

1170
00:43:47,630 --> 00:43:46,140
books yes reading the Unseen made me

1171
00:43:49,069 --> 00:43:47,640
want to read I mean I'd already had the

1172
00:43:50,569 --> 00:43:49,079
messengers on my stack of books to read

1173
00:43:52,730 --> 00:43:50,579
and I was excited to read it having had

1174
00:43:55,730 --> 00:43:52,740
conversations with you but the Unseen

1175
00:43:58,130 --> 00:43:55,740
resonated with me so deeply and there

1176
00:44:00,710 --> 00:43:58,140
was on its surface nothing for me to

1177
00:44:03,890 --> 00:44:00,720
relate to in terms of like similarities

1178
00:44:07,550 --> 00:44:03,900
in my own life but it spoke to kind of

1179
00:44:10,550 --> 00:44:07,560
quality of the anomalous experiences

1180
00:44:12,109 --> 00:44:10,560
that I've had you know when you say that

1181
00:44:14,210 --> 00:44:12,119
maybe people you've changed them to

1182
00:44:17,809 --> 00:44:14,220
Seekers it really identifies that right

1183
00:44:19,490 --> 00:44:17,819
I definitely identify as a seeker and

1184
00:44:22,609 --> 00:44:19,500
the more I Surrender

1185
00:44:24,410 --> 00:44:22,619
to that process into the radical mystery

1186
00:44:28,069 --> 00:44:24,420
that you end up confronting in these

1187
00:44:31,069 --> 00:44:28,079
topics I ended up really identifying

1188
00:44:33,349 --> 00:44:31,079
with the character and with the story

1189
00:44:35,030 --> 00:44:33,359
it's interesting there's a recurring

1190
00:44:37,250 --> 00:44:35,040
dream that I've been having since

1191
00:44:41,170 --> 00:44:37,260
reading the Unseen

1192
00:44:43,250 --> 00:44:41,180
um yeah which is that I am in this

1193
00:44:45,290 --> 00:44:43,260
decaying City

1194
00:44:47,270 --> 00:44:45,300
and no one seems to notice that it's

1195
00:44:48,770 --> 00:44:47,280
decaying but everything is just like a

1196
00:44:50,510 --> 00:44:48,780
mess and falling apart but people are

1197
00:44:53,510 --> 00:44:50,520
going about as though this is just like

1198
00:44:54,829 --> 00:44:53,520
a regular landscape and I notice that

1199
00:44:56,150 --> 00:44:54,839
everything's falling apart but I feel

1200
00:44:58,130 --> 00:44:56,160
like I can't really say it to people

1201
00:44:59,690 --> 00:44:58,140
like they're not gonna hear it or it's

1202
00:45:01,670 --> 00:44:59,700
gonna make me weird or something to say

1203
00:45:03,890 --> 00:45:01,680
it and as I'm kind of moving through

1204
00:45:07,790 --> 00:45:03,900
this landscape I start hearing the sound

1205
00:45:10,010 --> 00:45:07,800
of water and I start following that

1206
00:45:12,530 --> 00:45:10,020
sound and I have this sense that if I

1207
00:45:14,990 --> 00:45:12,540
just follow that sound of water that it

1208
00:45:16,550 --> 00:45:15,000
will take me to a stream which will take

1209
00:45:18,109 --> 00:45:16,560
me to a river which will take me out

1210
00:45:20,270 --> 00:45:18,119
into the Wilderness and I just have this

1211
00:45:22,910 --> 00:45:20,280
feeling that that's where I need to go

1212
00:45:24,650 --> 00:45:22,920
that it's like necessary and so the

1213
00:45:26,569 --> 00:45:24,660
dream is just following this sound of

1214
00:45:28,910 --> 00:45:26,579
water and I've had that a few times

1215
00:45:30,290 --> 00:45:28,920
since reading the book and when people

1216
00:45:32,030 --> 00:45:30,300
read the book they'll understand how

1217
00:45:33,650 --> 00:45:32,040
that all relates but I feel like they're

1218
00:45:36,589 --> 00:45:33,660
very connected

1219
00:45:39,770 --> 00:45:36,599
wow okay so your question was

1220
00:45:42,050 --> 00:45:39,780
like the premise and how the reasons of

1221
00:45:44,270 --> 00:45:42,060
the Unseen why like why did yeah they're

1222
00:45:46,309 --> 00:45:44,280
kind of the process for writing it okay

1223
00:45:48,410 --> 00:45:46,319
so I was professional illustrator all my

1224
00:45:51,050 --> 00:45:48,420
life and the world's changed and I

1225
00:45:53,690 --> 00:45:51,060
started writing books but turn the clock

1226
00:45:56,870 --> 00:45:53,700
back to 2010 I wanted to do a comic book

1227
00:45:59,390 --> 00:45:56,880
I want to do a full-on comic book and I

1228
00:46:00,890 --> 00:45:59,400
got so on fire like I was obsessed this

1229
00:46:02,450 --> 00:46:00,900
is very much like me I would get super

1230
00:46:04,730 --> 00:46:02,460
focused on one thing and I just like

1231
00:46:06,829 --> 00:46:04,740
perf soon I won't let go so I was like

1232
00:46:08,690 --> 00:46:06,839
I'm gonna make this comic book and then

1233
00:46:10,609 --> 00:46:08,700
I wrote a treatment for it I did a lot

1234
00:46:12,290 --> 00:46:10,619
of sketches for it I should put those

1235
00:46:14,450 --> 00:46:12,300
more of those sketches up online that's

1236
00:46:15,890 --> 00:46:14,460
on my checklist of things to do I knew

1237
00:46:17,569 --> 00:46:15,900
what I was doing and I knew this how I

1238
00:46:19,430 --> 00:46:17,579
wanted to present the story

1239
00:46:21,170 --> 00:46:19,440
and then I reached out to a few people

1240
00:46:23,210 --> 00:46:21,180
that I knew in the comic book industry

1241
00:46:25,309 --> 00:46:23,220
graphic novel might be the better way to

1242
00:46:27,710 --> 00:46:25,319
say it and I just realized like oh this

1243
00:46:29,210 --> 00:46:27,720
is it's too much work like talking to

1244
00:46:30,770 --> 00:46:29,220
people and I said you don't want to do

1245
00:46:32,750 --> 00:46:30,780
your own comic book no don't do it

1246
00:46:34,370 --> 00:46:32,760
you'll burn yourself out it's usually

1247
00:46:35,990 --> 00:46:34,380
done as a team one person draws one

1248
00:46:38,089 --> 00:46:36,000
person does this lettering one person

1249
00:46:39,890 --> 00:46:38,099
does the coloring so anyway so I had

1250
00:46:41,990 --> 00:46:39,900
this nice tidy treatment and I just put

1251
00:46:44,630 --> 00:46:42,000
it on a shelf and I picked it up after

1252
00:46:45,829 --> 00:46:44,640
writing the three owl books and then I

1253
00:46:47,390 --> 00:46:45,839
looked at the scene I said you know what

1254
00:46:49,190 --> 00:46:47,400
there's something here

1255
00:46:51,710 --> 00:46:49,200
something to this story I like this

1256
00:46:53,270 --> 00:46:51,720
story and so I started writing it in

1257
00:46:55,490 --> 00:46:53,280
initially when I started trying to write

1258
00:46:56,569 --> 00:46:55,500
it as a book oh dear God it was

1259
00:46:59,150 --> 00:46:56,579
frustrating

1260
00:47:00,410 --> 00:46:59,160
it was so difficult there was this kind

1261
00:47:01,550 --> 00:47:00,420
of love-hate relationship I would work

1262
00:47:03,650 --> 00:47:01,560
on it and I would back off and I would

1263
00:47:05,030 --> 00:47:03,660
work on it back off and so there came a

1264
00:47:07,130 --> 00:47:05,040
point when I was like oh I've done too

1265
00:47:09,470 --> 00:47:07,140
much work to not finish it and then for

1266
00:47:11,150 --> 00:47:09,480
about the last two years I just was full

1267
00:47:12,890 --> 00:47:11,160
time working on the book and didn't take

1268
00:47:15,530 --> 00:47:12,900
on much other work for good or for bad

1269
00:47:18,530 --> 00:47:15,540
my life was singular in its focus now

1270
00:47:21,109 --> 00:47:18,540
the story I tried to write a UFO story

1271
00:47:22,970 --> 00:47:21,119
without using the word UFOs there's

1272
00:47:24,950 --> 00:47:22,980
synchronicities all over the book I

1273
00:47:27,109 --> 00:47:24,960
never use the word synchronicity

1274
00:47:29,690 --> 00:47:27,119
I never use the word abduction there's

1275
00:47:34,069 --> 00:47:29,700
events that are implied but I never

1276
00:47:36,710 --> 00:47:34,079
quite say it so I tried tried tried to

1277
00:47:38,809 --> 00:47:36,720
tell a story here like an above the

1278
00:47:42,470 --> 00:47:38,819
water story and that's the pop culture

1279
00:47:44,390 --> 00:47:42,480
story with the spies and the romance and

1280
00:47:46,849 --> 00:47:44,400
the journey through the desert but below

1281
00:47:48,530 --> 00:47:46,859
that I was trying to tell a deeper

1282
00:47:52,370 --> 00:47:48,540
metaphoric story

1283
00:47:55,790 --> 00:47:52,380
of symbolic importance and initiation

1284
00:47:57,550 --> 00:47:55,800
and gods and goddesses life after death

1285
00:48:01,130 --> 00:47:57,560
and so those types of things we're told

1286
00:48:02,930 --> 00:48:01,140
below the water line let's say and the

1287
00:48:06,170 --> 00:48:02,940
process was

1288
00:48:07,309 --> 00:48:06,180
wow was it like a turn inward and I made

1289
00:48:09,770 --> 00:48:07,319
a decision

1290
00:48:11,510 --> 00:48:09,780
that I was gonna go for it my sister

1291
00:48:13,790 --> 00:48:11,520
recently read the book and she is not

1292
00:48:15,170 --> 00:48:13,800
interested in these subjects at all and

1293
00:48:18,230 --> 00:48:15,180
I knew it was going to be tough on her

1294
00:48:20,210 --> 00:48:18,240
to deal with these esoteric Mysteries

1295
00:48:22,190 --> 00:48:20,220
that are presented in the story and I

1296
00:48:23,270 --> 00:48:22,200
said Genie if you're confronted with

1297
00:48:25,609 --> 00:48:23,280
something in the story you don't

1298
00:48:28,010 --> 00:48:25,619
understand just keep reading but try to

1299
00:48:30,770 --> 00:48:28,020
tap into the emotions underneath that

1300
00:48:33,170 --> 00:48:30,780
and just let that be the thread that

1301
00:48:35,270 --> 00:48:33,180
pulls you through the story and she got

1302
00:48:36,530 --> 00:48:35,280
back to me she really liked the book and

1303
00:48:38,690 --> 00:48:36,540
she may have just been saying that but I

1304
00:48:40,730 --> 00:48:38,700
think she meant it and so that was my

1305
00:48:42,230 --> 00:48:40,740
premise too I wanted to tell a story

1306
00:48:45,290 --> 00:48:42,240
just like

1307
00:48:46,370 --> 00:48:45,300
full of emotion because when they talk

1308
00:48:48,950 --> 00:48:46,380
to people who have had the direct

1309
00:48:51,470 --> 00:48:48,960
experience they're not talking about you

1310
00:48:53,150 --> 00:48:51,480
know Metallurgy or they're not making

1311
00:48:55,490 --> 00:48:53,160
conclusions about beings from another

1312
00:48:57,470 --> 00:48:55,500
world or physical realities they are

1313
00:49:00,470 --> 00:48:57,480
talking about their own emotions they

1314
00:49:03,349 --> 00:49:00,480
are saying I was in awe I was terrified

1315
00:49:04,870 --> 00:49:03,359
I felt like I was drowning in the

1316
00:49:09,050 --> 00:49:04,880
mystery so they're talking about

1317
00:49:11,089 --> 00:49:09,060
complete internal emotions as far as how

1318
00:49:12,710 --> 00:49:11,099
they're framing their experience how

1319
00:49:16,190 --> 00:49:12,720
they felt in the moment and that was

1320
00:49:18,109 --> 00:49:16,200
what I was really on fire to get onto

1321
00:49:20,690 --> 00:49:18,119
the page well I really think you

1322
00:49:22,250 --> 00:49:20,700
achieved that and all the effort behind

1323
00:49:24,890 --> 00:49:22,260
it I think the beauty of the book is

1324
00:49:27,770 --> 00:49:24,900
that you don't feel that effort at all

1325
00:49:29,210 --> 00:49:27,780
your prose reminds me of actually one of

1326
00:49:32,349 --> 00:49:29,220
my favorite authors one of my favorite

1327
00:49:34,730 --> 00:49:32,359
books is Shop Girl by Steve Martin and

1328
00:49:36,050 --> 00:49:34,740
have you read that one no no but I

1329
00:49:37,849 --> 00:49:36,060
remember I remember when it came out and

1330
00:49:39,050 --> 00:49:37,859
so yeah keep going yeah it's one of my

1331
00:49:41,630 --> 00:49:39,060
favorite movies one of my favorite books

1332
00:49:45,470 --> 00:49:41,640
and what I love so much about his pros

1333
00:49:48,410 --> 00:49:45,480
and yours is that it's so spare and so

1334
00:49:50,690 --> 00:49:48,420
simple and yet you feel fully immersed

1335
00:49:52,370 --> 00:49:50,700
in the work itself in the emotions of it

1336
00:49:55,790 --> 00:49:52,380
and even in the environment of it it

1337
00:49:58,550 --> 00:49:55,800
ends up being somehow more fully

1338
00:50:00,650 --> 00:49:58,560
realized by kind of this fairness of the

1339
00:50:03,410 --> 00:50:00,660
prose itself I felt really immersed in

1340
00:50:06,230 --> 00:50:03,420
that world and I really I think that

1341
00:50:08,569 --> 00:50:06,240
it's wonderful as a contribution to this

1342
00:50:11,510 --> 00:50:08,579
field but I also think that just as a

1343
00:50:14,510 --> 00:50:11,520
work of literature it's beautiful

1344
00:50:16,730 --> 00:50:14,520
oh thank you so much thank you so much

1345
00:50:18,589 --> 00:50:16,740
one of the characters in the book Tony

1346
00:50:20,569 --> 00:50:18,599
was based on a researcher in the field

1347
00:50:22,849 --> 00:50:20,579
who is sadly no longer with us Mac

1348
00:50:24,770 --> 00:50:22,859
Tony's I actually wasn't familiar with

1349
00:50:26,270 --> 00:50:24,780
him when I first read the book but then

1350
00:50:27,950 --> 00:50:26,280
I realized that I already had his book

1351
00:50:29,750 --> 00:50:27,960
on my shelf the crypto terrestrials

1352
00:50:32,089 --> 00:50:29,760
because I'm like chronically a hundred

1353
00:50:34,130 --> 00:50:32,099
books behind but I've been diving into

1354
00:50:35,390 --> 00:50:34,140
that and really enjoying it and I was

1355
00:50:37,130 --> 00:50:35,400
hoping that you could talk a little bit

1356
00:50:38,750 --> 00:50:37,140
about Mac for people who might not be

1357
00:50:40,849 --> 00:50:38,760
familiar with him and his work and why

1358
00:50:43,130 --> 00:50:40,859
it is that you decided to conclude this

1359
00:50:45,050 --> 00:50:43,140
fictional version of him in the book

1360
00:50:46,730 --> 00:50:45,060
going back there's a character named

1361
00:50:47,870 --> 00:50:46,740
timbinol and he still has a podcast but

1362
00:50:49,490 --> 00:50:47,880
his podcast was really quite

1363
00:50:52,069 --> 00:50:49,500
groundbreaking at the time and he did a

1364
00:50:53,930 --> 00:50:52,079
podcast now about 2000 this would have

1365
00:50:55,910 --> 00:50:53,940
been around 2007. he interviewed this

1366
00:50:57,349 --> 00:50:55,920
fellow Mac Tony's and I remember

1367
00:50:59,089 --> 00:50:57,359
listening to him like I gotta talk to

1368
00:51:01,250 --> 00:50:59,099
this guy so I just called him up this is

1369
00:51:04,190 --> 00:51:01,260
back when you still had dial-up phones

1370
00:51:06,710 --> 00:51:04,200
and like ancient history so we get to be

1371
00:51:09,049 --> 00:51:06,720
friends and we would talk often

1372
00:51:10,549 --> 00:51:09,059
and so between about two I think it

1373
00:51:12,650 --> 00:51:10,559
would have been 2007 when I finally

1374
00:51:14,690 --> 00:51:12,660
connected with them so 2007 and he died

1375
00:51:16,730 --> 00:51:14,700
in 2009 first so for two years we talked

1376
00:51:19,849 --> 00:51:16,740
on the phone a lot this was a very

1377
00:51:23,809 --> 00:51:19,859
difficult chapter of my life this was

1378
00:51:25,549 --> 00:51:23,819
early on when I was realizing that I

1379
00:51:28,970 --> 00:51:25,559
quite probably had UFO contact

1380
00:51:31,870 --> 00:51:28,980
experiences and I was not at peace and

1381
00:51:35,510 --> 00:51:31,880
he was a very calm thoughtful

1382
00:51:37,450 --> 00:51:35,520
open-minded supportive friend in this

1383
00:51:42,130 --> 00:51:37,460
time of my life where I was struggling

1384
00:51:44,690 --> 00:51:42,140
with these issues and he was not at all

1385
00:51:46,490 --> 00:51:44,700
emotional about it like if I got

1386
00:51:48,589 --> 00:51:46,500
emotional or like I would literally

1387
00:51:50,690 --> 00:51:48,599
teary eyed he would State just strictly

1388
00:51:52,609 --> 00:51:50,700
to the story and like like isn't that

1389
00:51:54,349 --> 00:51:52,619
interesting you're getting so emotional

1390
00:51:56,329 --> 00:51:54,359
about this he didn't say oh buddy take a

1391
00:51:57,890 --> 00:51:56,339
deep breath none of that he was just

1392
00:52:00,410 --> 00:51:57,900
like this story that you're telling this

1393
00:52:02,690 --> 00:52:00,420
story that is unfolding is remarkable

1394
00:52:04,910 --> 00:52:02,700
and he recognized that so he was great a

1395
00:52:06,470 --> 00:52:04,920
great friend and I write about in my

1396
00:52:07,670 --> 00:52:06,480
third book on the thing called hidden

1397
00:52:09,410 --> 00:52:07,680
experience variance there's a whole

1398
00:52:10,790 --> 00:52:09,420
chapter about Mac Tony's and many people

1399
00:52:12,230 --> 00:52:10,800
have gotten back to me on that book that

1400
00:52:14,630 --> 00:52:12,240
book isn't selling very well that book

1401
00:52:17,569 --> 00:52:14,640
seems to be people who have had UFO

1402
00:52:18,890 --> 00:52:17,579
contact experiences they resonate

1403
00:52:21,049 --> 00:52:18,900
strongly with it and not many other

1404
00:52:24,170 --> 00:52:21,059
people do but there's a whole chapter on

1405
00:52:26,390 --> 00:52:24,180
Mac in that book and he finished the

1406
00:52:27,349 --> 00:52:26,400
crypto terrestrials and it's my

1407
00:52:29,569 --> 00:52:27,359
understanding that there was a

1408
00:52:32,089 --> 00:52:29,579
three-ring binder with a manuscript that

1409
00:52:34,970 --> 00:52:32,099
was close to being done printed with red

1410
00:52:38,510 --> 00:52:34,980
pen marks and red edits on his desk when

1411
00:52:41,150 --> 00:52:38,520
they found him he was 34 I think he died

1412
00:52:42,470 --> 00:52:41,160
of a undiagnosed heart condition and I

1413
00:52:43,790 --> 00:52:42,480
talked to him shortly after he'd been in

1414
00:52:45,290 --> 00:52:43,800
the hospital and he had passed out at

1415
00:52:47,390 --> 00:52:45,300
work he was a barista so he worked at

1416
00:52:48,770 --> 00:52:47,400
Starbucks he was he made coffee and

1417
00:52:50,630 --> 00:52:48,780
there was pictures and lots of pictures

1418
00:52:52,069 --> 00:52:50,640
of him with coffee on his website his

1419
00:52:55,370 --> 00:52:52,079
website is still online it's called

1420
00:52:58,670 --> 00:52:55,380
post-human Blues it's been archived it's

1421
00:52:59,990 --> 00:52:58,680
there forever some of his friends had

1422
00:53:01,609 --> 00:53:00,000
gone through and carefully archived

1423
00:53:04,670 --> 00:53:01,619
everything he was a wonderful writer

1424
00:53:05,510 --> 00:53:04,680
very early on in the blogosphere so in a

1425
00:53:07,609 --> 00:53:05,520
point in the book when one of the

1426
00:53:08,870 --> 00:53:07,619
characters a woman so sodium fighting he

1427
00:53:10,250 --> 00:53:08,880
says I'm writing a book of short stories

1428
00:53:11,569 --> 00:53:10,260
in a non-fiction book so the book of

1429
00:53:13,549 --> 00:53:11,579
short stories would bid his book

1430
00:53:15,589 --> 00:53:13,559
illuminated black which is a collection

1431
00:53:16,849 --> 00:53:15,599
of short stories and then his

1432
00:53:18,710 --> 00:53:16,859
non-fiction book would have been the

1433
00:53:20,569 --> 00:53:18,720
crypto terrestrials he actually wrote a

1434
00:53:21,770 --> 00:53:20,579
few other books but I just that was in

1435
00:53:25,130 --> 00:53:21,780
my mind

1436
00:53:28,130 --> 00:53:25,140
it was Mac writing those books so there

1437
00:53:29,990 --> 00:53:28,140
came a point when I needed to do the

1438
00:53:32,150 --> 00:53:30,000
illustrations I had the manuscript had

1439
00:53:35,030 --> 00:53:32,160
been sent to me by the publisher Mac had

1440
00:53:38,030 --> 00:53:35,040
already died and it was so emotional for

1441
00:53:41,510 --> 00:53:38,040
me so emotional for me the night I got

1442
00:53:43,910 --> 00:53:41,520
the word that he died I had severe chest

1443
00:53:45,950 --> 00:53:43,920
pains and I didn't know what that was

1444
00:53:48,290 --> 00:53:45,960
all about and I was driving alone at

1445
00:53:49,730 --> 00:53:48,300
night and I was in Moab Utah basically

1446
00:53:51,829 --> 00:53:49,740
the setting of the story in many ways

1447
00:53:53,450 --> 00:53:51,839
and of the fiction story and I was

1448
00:53:55,849 --> 00:53:53,460
driving home from Moab I had heard that

1449
00:53:58,549 --> 00:53:55,859
he died and I went to a coffee shop and

1450
00:53:59,990 --> 00:53:58,559
got a double latte and drank it in honor

1451
00:54:01,970 --> 00:54:00,000
of him because he loved coffee and we

1452
00:54:04,010 --> 00:54:01,980
talked a lot about coffee together the

1453
00:54:07,670 --> 00:54:04,020
story of the Unseen is also a love

1454
00:54:10,190 --> 00:54:07,680
letter to Coffee in many ways so I drove

1455
00:54:12,049 --> 00:54:10,200
home and listened to I had my iPod

1456
00:54:14,390 --> 00:54:12,059
generationally back when those were

1457
00:54:16,010 --> 00:54:14,400
still happening and I had my iPod loaded

1458
00:54:17,990 --> 00:54:16,020
with all kinds of interviews he was

1459
00:54:20,150 --> 00:54:18,000
guest on a lot of podcasts and I

1460
00:54:22,309 --> 00:54:20,160
listened to all his podcasts driving at

1461
00:54:24,349 --> 00:54:22,319
night in the desert with chest pain and

1462
00:54:26,690 --> 00:54:24,359
I was of the age I would have been

1463
00:54:30,170 --> 00:54:26,700
probably 50s I guess

1464
00:54:32,450 --> 00:54:30,180
a right near 50 and so it was a super

1465
00:54:34,370 --> 00:54:32,460
emotional point so some months later I

1466
00:54:36,710 --> 00:54:34,380
am set to do the illustrations for the

1467
00:54:38,990 --> 00:54:36,720
book I have a three-ring binder in my

1468
00:54:40,910 --> 00:54:39,000
house with the printed version of the

1469
00:54:42,290 --> 00:54:40,920
PDF the book is short it's only like 80

1470
00:54:44,750 --> 00:54:42,300
Pages or something like that's a

1471
00:54:47,089 --> 00:54:44,760
remarkable little book and I opened the

1472
00:54:48,470 --> 00:54:47,099
first page I was sitting on the couch I

1473
00:54:50,470 --> 00:54:48,480
was going to make some notes about the

1474
00:54:53,510 --> 00:54:50,480
illustrations for each chapter heading

1475
00:54:56,150 --> 00:54:53,520
and I read the words the crypto

1476
00:55:00,109 --> 00:54:56,160
terrestrials by Mac Tony's and right

1477
00:55:02,510 --> 00:55:00,119
next to me my stereo goes clunk

1478
00:55:04,190 --> 00:55:02,520
and it spits out the cassette or there

1479
00:55:05,990 --> 00:55:04,200
was a point when CD players had this

1480
00:55:07,490 --> 00:55:06,000
kind of cassette you could stack six CDs

1481
00:55:10,609 --> 00:55:07,500
and you'd plug the cassette in it would

1482
00:55:11,690 --> 00:55:10,619
Shuffle the six CDs and I was alone in

1483
00:55:14,930 --> 00:55:11,700
the house had never done that before

1484
00:55:16,549 --> 00:55:14,940
since I wrote an essay this is something

1485
00:55:17,870 --> 00:55:16,559
this this is typical this is the Paradox

1486
00:55:20,030 --> 00:55:17,880
syndrome I can't start one story without

1487
00:55:22,730 --> 00:55:20,040
getting dragged into another story so I

1488
00:55:25,970 --> 00:55:22,740
wrote an essay in 2007

1489
00:55:28,309 --> 00:55:25,980
in November of 2007 and it's a very

1490
00:55:31,069 --> 00:55:28,319
first blog post on my blog it's called

1491
00:55:32,750 --> 00:55:31,079
cat and string and I said I play with

1492
00:55:34,790 --> 00:55:32,760
the string with my cat

1493
00:55:37,490 --> 00:55:34,800
and the cat thinks the string is alive

1494
00:55:40,130 --> 00:55:37,500
the string isn't alive the cat gets all

1495
00:55:42,829 --> 00:55:40,140
amped up the cat can only achieve its

1496
00:55:44,809 --> 00:55:42,839
Katniss its true Katniss by playing with

1497
00:55:47,150 --> 00:55:44,819
this string and thinking it's alive but

1498
00:55:50,030 --> 00:55:47,160
that's this is the UFO enigma

1499
00:55:51,349 --> 00:55:50,040
the string it's connected to me the

1500
00:55:53,390 --> 00:55:51,359
cat's not looking at me the cat's

1501
00:55:55,849 --> 00:55:53,400
looking at the spring the cat plays with

1502
00:55:57,530 --> 00:55:55,859
the string eyes dilate

1503
00:55:59,930 --> 00:55:57,540
Mac Tony's

1504
00:56:01,670 --> 00:55:59,940
we had never met long before he had

1505
00:56:03,349 --> 00:56:01,680
published I didn't know him from anyone

1506
00:56:05,089 --> 00:56:03,359
I got up one morning and wrote that

1507
00:56:08,210 --> 00:56:05,099
essay in a kind of flurry

1508
00:56:11,030 --> 00:56:08,220
Mac wrote an essay where he had a laser

1509
00:56:13,010 --> 00:56:11,040
pointer with his cat he wrote the same

1510
00:56:15,950 --> 00:56:13,020
essay I put him back to back in one of

1511
00:56:17,510 --> 00:56:15,960
my books he wrote the same essay within

1512
00:56:20,390 --> 00:56:17,520
a month of each other where he was

1513
00:56:21,829 --> 00:56:20,400
playing with a cat with a laser pointer

1514
00:56:23,329 --> 00:56:21,839
same thing cat's looking at the Little

1515
00:56:26,089 --> 00:56:23,339
Red Dot on the carpet

1516
00:56:29,270 --> 00:56:26,099
Mac is controlling it the Little Dot is

1517
00:56:31,549 --> 00:56:29,280
just a projection the cat fulfills its

1518
00:56:33,890 --> 00:56:31,559
Katniss by playing with that red dot so

1519
00:56:36,950 --> 00:56:33,900
are we as people fulfilling our Humanity

1520
00:56:41,030 --> 00:56:36,960
by being fascinated by these things in

1521
00:56:42,650 --> 00:56:41,040
the sky and so I was a guy who teaches

1522
00:56:44,390 --> 00:56:42,660
like lightweight camping techniques and

1523
00:56:47,030 --> 00:56:44,400
things like that so I'm very much go

1524
00:56:49,130 --> 00:56:47,040
into the woods no technology sparse

1525
00:56:50,690 --> 00:56:49,140
spare so I wrote an essay about playing

1526
00:56:52,790 --> 00:56:50,700
with a piece of string he wrote an essay

1527
00:56:55,190 --> 00:56:52,800
he was a futurist he wrote an essay

1528
00:56:57,170 --> 00:56:55,200
about a laser beam and that the closest

1529
00:56:59,870 --> 00:56:57,180
laser beam to me

1530
00:57:02,510 --> 00:56:59,880
was that CD player which was run by a

1531
00:57:03,829 --> 00:57:02,520
laser beam which was within touching

1532
00:57:07,309 --> 00:57:03,839
distance of when I was sitting on the

1533
00:57:09,410 --> 00:57:07,319
couch and I heard the clunk as I read

1534
00:57:10,490 --> 00:57:09,420
the words the crypto terrestrials by Mac

1535
00:57:12,589 --> 00:57:10,500
Tony's

1536
00:57:14,270 --> 00:57:12,599
so it felt like

1537
00:57:16,549 --> 00:57:14,280
Mac was in the room

1538
00:57:17,930 --> 00:57:16,559
I can't say that he was but wow that is

1539
00:57:20,150 --> 00:57:17,940
what it felt like

1540
00:57:21,710 --> 00:57:20,160
there I did the thing I answered a long

1541
00:57:22,790 --> 00:57:21,720
long long answer to a very simple

1542
00:57:24,829 --> 00:57:22,800
question

1543
00:57:27,589 --> 00:57:24,839
well I love that answer and I also

1544
00:57:29,809 --> 00:57:27,599
really love that metaphor of the string

1545
00:57:31,970 --> 00:57:29,819
and the laser and the cat because I

1546
00:57:34,790 --> 00:57:31,980
threw all of these narratives and

1547
00:57:36,349 --> 00:57:34,800
through my own experience with these

1548
00:57:39,650 --> 00:57:36,359
kind of synchronicities and anomalous

1549
00:57:42,410 --> 00:57:39,660
events I think so many of us come to

1550
00:57:44,329 --> 00:57:42,420
that kind of a suspicion that there is

1551
00:57:46,130 --> 00:57:44,339
something about that I actually don't

1552
00:57:48,589 --> 00:57:46,140
ever expect to get any kind of an answer

1553
00:57:51,290 --> 00:57:48,599
to any of this I've good you'll keep

1554
00:57:53,569 --> 00:57:51,300
yourself sane that way yeah like I've

1555
00:57:55,730 --> 00:57:53,579
invested my entire life in this I walked

1556
00:57:57,470 --> 00:57:55,740
away from my career I've made this my

1557
00:57:59,150 --> 00:57:57,480
full-time job it's all I think about

1558
00:58:01,490 --> 00:57:59,160
from the time I wake up till the time I

1559
00:58:03,530 --> 00:58:01,500
go to bed and I don't expect to find the

1560
00:58:05,510 --> 00:58:03,540
answer even though I find it frustrating

1561
00:58:07,069 --> 00:58:05,520
and even though I sometimes wish there

1562
00:58:10,190 --> 00:58:07,079
was a button I could push and just not

1563
00:58:12,049 --> 00:58:10,200
think about UFOs for like 48 hours I'm

1564
00:58:14,150 --> 00:58:12,059
so grateful for it because it's made

1565
00:58:17,270 --> 00:58:14,160
every bit of my life

1566
00:58:19,250 --> 00:58:17,280
better and I think that so much of our

1567
00:58:22,190 --> 00:58:19,260
culture and the way that our Modern Life

1568
00:58:24,589 --> 00:58:22,200
is set up is about consuming stories and

1569
00:58:26,270 --> 00:58:24,599
being manipulated by stories and

1570
00:58:29,569 --> 00:58:26,280
everything is set up to keep you from

1571
00:58:31,370 --> 00:58:29,579
living your own story and that there's

1572
00:58:35,329 --> 00:58:31,380
something about the phenomenon that

1573
00:58:37,789 --> 00:58:35,339
forces you into being a main character

1574
00:58:39,710 --> 00:58:37,799
in a story and I think that that

1575
00:58:42,410 --> 00:58:39,720
actually is at the heart of what it

1576
00:58:44,630 --> 00:58:42,420
means to be human and so I love that

1577
00:58:46,849 --> 00:58:44,640
metaphor of the cat and the string and

1578
00:58:48,589 --> 00:58:46,859
the laser pointer so much because I feel

1579
00:58:49,789 --> 00:58:48,599
like uh it's a great illustration of

1580
00:58:52,430 --> 00:58:49,799
something that I've been sensing but

1581
00:58:54,650 --> 00:58:52,440
haven't been able to put words to

1582
00:58:56,270 --> 00:58:54,660
well that's the analogy of the shadow on

1583
00:58:57,650 --> 00:58:56,280
the cave wall right you're looking right

1584
00:58:59,569 --> 00:58:57,660
you're not looking at reality the

1585
00:59:01,430 --> 00:58:59,579
reality is being orchestrated by someone

1586
00:59:02,930 --> 00:59:01,440
holding the laser pointer you're just

1587
00:59:05,150 --> 00:59:02,940
seeing the Little Dot that there's

1588
00:59:07,549 --> 00:59:05,160
something theatrical happening within

1589
00:59:10,970 --> 00:59:07,559
this lore and by the fact that it's

1590
00:59:13,250 --> 00:59:10,980
theatrical means that it has a Whimsy

1591
00:59:14,930 --> 00:59:13,260
and it has a drama

1592
00:59:18,010 --> 00:59:14,940
and it has an intensity it has the

1593
00:59:21,829 --> 00:59:18,020
ability to present you with fears and

1594
00:59:22,910 --> 00:59:21,839
sorrows and hopes and just like a good

1595
00:59:26,089 --> 00:59:22,920
story would

1596
00:59:28,910 --> 00:59:26,099
so that's so I'm being confronted with

1597
00:59:33,170 --> 00:59:28,920
owl stories and Within These owl stories

1598
00:59:34,789 --> 00:59:33,180
is somehow for me proof I can't say I

1599
00:59:36,109 --> 00:59:34,799
don't say that that it's going to be

1600
00:59:38,270 --> 00:59:36,119
proof for anyone else but for me

1601
00:59:40,130 --> 00:59:38,280
embedded Within These owl stories is

1602
00:59:43,309 --> 00:59:40,140
proof of a deeper reality that is

1603
00:59:46,069 --> 00:59:43,319
running alongside our reality and that

1604
00:59:48,109 --> 00:59:46,079
not many people get that life lesson and

1605
00:59:51,049 --> 00:59:48,119
I feel really blessed to have had it I

1606
00:59:53,569 --> 00:59:51,059
agree I agree because I feel like as

1607
00:59:55,549 --> 00:59:53,579
much as the Endeavor of this podcast has

1608
00:59:57,950 --> 00:59:55,559
been the very scientific objective

1609
01:00:00,230 --> 00:59:57,960
approach in trying to go from a very

1610
01:00:03,710 --> 01:00:00,240
analytical Viewpoint and either

1611
01:00:05,510 --> 01:00:03,720
explicate or even create these really

1612
01:00:07,130 --> 01:00:05,520
structured ontologies so that we can

1613
01:00:11,030 --> 01:00:07,140
approach this from an intellectual sort

1614
01:00:12,589 --> 01:00:11,040
of way the lived experience of this like

1615
01:00:15,049 --> 01:00:12,599
I said I think that there's so much to

1616
01:00:17,510 --> 01:00:15,059
be gained through approaching these

1617
01:00:19,670 --> 01:00:17,520
narratives as narratives and assessing

1618
01:00:22,430 --> 01:00:19,680
them in that way and not necessarily

1619
01:00:25,250 --> 01:00:22,440
trying to force these different

1620
01:00:26,930 --> 01:00:25,260
ontologies onto it because ultimately we

1621
01:00:29,569 --> 01:00:26,940
find that the lived experience of any

1622
01:00:31,490 --> 01:00:29,579
individual person eludes all of these

1623
01:00:33,170 --> 01:00:31,500
different categories that we try to

1624
01:00:35,630 --> 01:00:33,180
force them into

1625
01:00:38,210 --> 01:00:35,640
I agree totally I've said that I am a

1626
01:00:40,609 --> 01:00:38,220
disciple of the story right so the story

1627
01:00:43,490 --> 01:00:40,619
to me is all that's important

1628
01:00:44,270 --> 01:00:43,500
because that's what I resonate strongly

1629
01:00:46,190 --> 01:00:44,280
to

1630
01:00:48,470 --> 01:00:46,200
and as I said before I am not being

1631
01:00:51,470 --> 01:00:48,480
objective I am being totally subjective

1632
01:00:54,109 --> 01:00:51,480
because this is my own deeply personal

1633
01:00:55,490 --> 01:00:54,119
Journey for my own selfish reasons I

1634
01:00:58,549 --> 01:00:55,500
want to try to make sense of this I want

1635
01:01:00,410 --> 01:00:58,559
to integrate this and I like you like I

1636
01:01:02,390 --> 01:01:00,420
gave up a long time ago trying to get to

1637
01:01:04,430 --> 01:01:02,400
an answer because that's like saying

1638
01:01:05,990 --> 01:01:04,440
what is God right you can that's a great

1639
01:01:06,710 --> 01:01:06,000
question boy that's a tough one to

1640
01:01:09,349 --> 01:01:06,720
answer

1641
01:01:11,809 --> 01:01:09,359
so you're in a place or I'm in a place

1642
01:01:13,789 --> 01:01:11,819
where these things cannot be answered

1643
01:01:16,430 --> 01:01:13,799
literally they can be answered

1644
01:01:18,770 --> 01:01:16,440
metaphorically or through symbology I

1645
01:01:21,170 --> 01:01:18,780
think the owl is as a symbol

1646
01:01:23,329 --> 01:01:21,180
the UFO is a symbol and I think

1647
01:01:25,789 --> 01:01:23,339
synchronicity is this magic event that

1648
01:01:28,370 --> 01:01:25,799
we all can understand and that has been

1649
01:01:32,030 --> 01:01:28,380
my grounding force that I can tap into

1650
01:01:33,890 --> 01:01:32,040
these elusive story elements and feel

1651
01:01:36,950 --> 01:01:33,900
them deep down and that's where I find

1652
01:01:39,289 --> 01:01:36,960
my piece I really resonate with that so

1653
01:01:41,089 --> 01:01:39,299
what do you hope that people take away

1654
01:01:43,609 --> 01:01:41,099
from The Unseen

1655
01:01:45,470 --> 01:01:43,619
so on a service level I hope they enjoy

1656
01:01:47,270 --> 01:01:45,480
it and it races along and it's fun for

1657
01:01:48,829 --> 01:01:47,280
them as far as a book like yeah we're a

1658
01:01:50,210 --> 01:01:48,839
thriller yeah I worked really hard to

1659
01:01:51,890 --> 01:01:50,220
make people say oh it's a page Turner

1660
01:01:53,390 --> 01:01:51,900
and that wasn't by accident I wanted it

1661
01:01:55,010 --> 01:01:53,400
to be that way so I wrote it that way

1662
01:01:56,450 --> 01:01:55,020
and I wrote it to be the kind of book

1663
01:01:58,069 --> 01:01:56,460
that I would like to read so on a

1664
01:01:59,390 --> 01:01:58,079
surface level I think they I just want

1665
01:02:01,789 --> 01:01:59,400
someone to say great book wow that was

1666
01:02:03,650 --> 01:02:01,799
fun to read that was just zip right by

1667
01:02:06,170 --> 01:02:03,660
and then in a deeper level

1668
01:02:09,410 --> 01:02:06,180
that lesson that there is

1669
01:02:10,130 --> 01:02:09,420
a deeper reality running parallel to our

1670
01:02:12,170 --> 01:02:10,140
own

1671
01:02:14,089 --> 01:02:12,180
and that it overlaps with us and

1672
01:02:16,849 --> 01:02:14,099
intersects with us and makes itself

1673
01:02:19,190 --> 01:02:16,859
known in the strangest ways

1674
01:02:21,049 --> 01:02:19,200
and then recedes down below

1675
01:02:23,210 --> 01:02:21,059
like a corpse on the surface of the

1676
01:02:24,470 --> 01:02:23,220
water just it'll make itself known and

1677
01:02:26,270 --> 01:02:24,480
you can't know too much about the

1678
01:02:28,569 --> 01:02:26,280
porpoise from the boat

1679
01:02:31,430 --> 01:02:28,579
you can sense its direction

1680
01:02:32,750 --> 01:02:31,440
but not much more

1681
01:02:36,130 --> 01:02:32,760
so

1682
01:02:39,289 --> 01:02:36,140
hopefully the the story of the Unseen

1683
01:02:41,390 --> 01:02:39,299
comes from the thousands of accounts

1684
01:02:43,130 --> 01:02:41,400
that I have received like many of the

1685
01:02:45,049 --> 01:02:43,140
accounts in the story are my own and

1686
01:02:47,270 --> 01:02:45,059
often of strangest ones are my own I

1687
01:02:49,549 --> 01:02:47,280
have to say and I massaged them and

1688
01:02:50,990 --> 01:02:49,559
tweaked them and kind of made him work

1689
01:02:53,329 --> 01:02:51,000
into the narrative in a way that

1690
01:02:55,370 --> 01:02:53,339
propelled the story forward but if you

1691
01:02:58,190 --> 01:02:55,380
read that story and you think wow this

1692
01:03:00,049 --> 01:02:58,200
is really weird just rest assured that

1693
01:03:02,150 --> 01:03:00,059
most of the weird stuff in that book

1694
01:03:05,990 --> 01:03:02,160
truly happen now I'm going to take a big

1695
01:03:07,910 --> 01:03:06,000
step back true truly quotes

1696
01:03:10,250 --> 01:03:07,920
like I don't know what true is anymore

1697
01:03:11,569 --> 01:03:10,260
right so people tell me these stories

1698
01:03:13,130 --> 01:03:11,579
and they sound like wow that sounds like

1699
01:03:15,589 --> 01:03:13,140
you're in a dream realm hearing that

1700
01:03:18,530 --> 01:03:15,599
story but a story doesn't make it true

1701
01:03:21,829 --> 01:03:18,540
but the opening page the very first line

1702
01:03:25,730 --> 01:03:21,839
on the book says this story is fiction

1703
01:03:27,349 --> 01:03:25,740
the emotions are real and that was my

1704
01:03:30,470 --> 01:03:27,359
Mantra in a way

1705
01:03:33,589 --> 01:03:30,480
well I really think you achieved that so

1706
01:03:36,049 --> 01:03:33,599
I know that this is an absolutely brutal

1707
01:03:37,670 --> 01:03:36,059
question to ask an author who just got

1708
01:03:38,569 --> 01:03:37,680
done pouring their whole heart into a

1709
01:03:41,690 --> 01:03:38,579
book

1710
01:03:44,390 --> 01:03:41,700
um but will there be a sequel that's a

1711
01:03:46,910 --> 01:03:44,400
great question the answer is don't ask

1712
01:03:48,410 --> 01:03:46,920
me that right away so um I think it was

1713
01:03:49,910 --> 01:03:48,420
you that said uh we had a phone

1714
01:03:51,349 --> 01:03:49,920
conversation after you finished the book

1715
01:03:53,510 --> 01:03:51,359
you asked that same question I was like

1716
01:03:56,510 --> 01:03:53,520
you could hear my heart stop like don't

1717
01:03:58,609 --> 01:03:56,520
forget oh my God like that was it's like

1718
01:04:00,950 --> 01:03:58,619
asking a woman after she gives birth can

1719
01:04:02,569 --> 01:04:00,960
I have more kids and she's probably not

1720
01:04:05,170 --> 01:04:02,579
ready right then but oftentimes women do

1721
01:04:09,289 --> 01:04:05,180
have more kids so I would have to say

1722
01:04:11,569 --> 01:04:09,299
I have a little notebook with some notes

1723
01:04:13,910 --> 01:04:11,579
on what may or may not be in book two so

1724
01:04:15,530 --> 01:04:13,920
it's on my mind and I'm not going to

1725
01:04:18,170 --> 01:04:15,540
give anything away but

1726
01:04:20,870 --> 01:04:18,180
when you get to the last page it is sort

1727
01:04:23,510 --> 01:04:20,880
of set up for book two and I was

1728
01:04:26,030 --> 01:04:23,520
that that was not my plan but wow that's

1729
01:04:28,130 --> 01:04:26,040
how it turned out so yes I feel like

1730
01:04:29,990 --> 01:04:28,140
people will want that so we'll see if

1731
01:04:33,109 --> 01:04:30,000
the muses speak to you

1732
01:04:34,609 --> 01:04:33,119
so Mike it's been absolutely a pleasure

1733
01:04:35,809 --> 01:04:34,619
talking to you I'm so glad that we've

1734
01:04:36,710 --> 01:04:35,819
gotten to do this

1735
01:04:38,150 --> 01:04:36,720
um over the last few months you've

1736
01:04:40,190 --> 01:04:38,160
become one of my just absolute favorite

1737
01:04:41,990 --> 01:04:40,200
people to talk to in the space and I'm

1738
01:04:43,730 --> 01:04:42,000
so glad that we were able to share this

1739
01:04:44,870 --> 01:04:43,740
conversation so thank you for being on

1740
01:04:46,549 --> 01:04:44,880
the show today

1741
01:04:48,289 --> 01:04:46,559
well thank you and we had a conversation

1742
01:04:50,450 --> 01:04:48,299
I called you about the blue and you know

1743
01:04:52,549 --> 01:04:50,460
and honestly I do this like I just I

1744
01:04:55,430 --> 01:04:52,559
listen to you on your show and I was

1745
01:04:56,750 --> 01:04:55,440
like oh no there's like so I knew when

1746
01:04:59,150 --> 01:04:56,760
we talked that this is how it would play

1747
01:05:05,160 --> 01:04:59,160
out so yes so thank you I was I'm

1748
01:05:21,370 --> 01:05:08,440
[Music]